Well, just got back from my 2nd flying lesson.
It was a perfectly clear day. Not a cloud to be seen. A little blustery on
the ground, but nothing major.
Today, I did my first take-off. I wasn't expecting it to be such an intense
experience. It was much twitchier than I was expecting. Not really sure what
I was expecting to be honest.
Anyway, barrelled down the runway, and at 50kts gently pulled the stick
back. Up we went. Pretty much nailed the climb rate which I was pleased
about. I had been worried about pulling back too hard, or not enough.
The air was fairly rough for the first 500ft, but then settled down, with
the exception of a few hefty reminders that the wind was still about, thrown
in for good measure.
It had been just over 2 weeks since my first lesson, due to bad weather the
previous weekend.After about 10 minutes or so, my instructor was satisfied I
was once again comfortable with the handling of the a/c, and we moved onto
todays lesson. Climbing and descending.
We did about 3 step climbs, and she was satisfied I was understanding the
concept well. After the 3rd one, I was feeling confident with it. Same with
descents. I actually enjoyed the descents for some reason. It's hard to
explain why I felt that way. I think I maybe felt like it was ME flying,
rather than the plane flying. You know what I mean? I know I AM flying the
plane, but it's hard to describe. Maybe it was because the power was down,
and I could hear more, I don't know.
Next was climbing turns and descending turns. Didn't really have any trouble
with these, again, I enjoyed the descending turns a great deal! :-)
Lastly, we covered medium turns and steep turns. Medium turns were fine, as
most of my turns so far have been a bit closer to medium turns than shallow
turns anyway! ;-)
Steep turns were a little more difficult. On the first one, I lost some
altitude, but on the second attampt I was within the 40-50ft tollerance she
allowed me. Was getting a little more blustery by this stage too, so half
way through a turn, mother nature would say hello and push my nice 30 degree
turn into a 45 degree turn for a brief second.
So, now I have a total of 1.9 hours, with the next lesson booked for next
weekend. Next lesson is Stalls, providing the weather affords us a high
cloud ceiling. If not, it's landings apparently! My instructor says she
thinks I'm progressing sufficiently well enough to proceed to the next steps
so I must be doing ok. :-)
One thing I did notice, and I commented on it with my instructor, is that I
don't feel that I am using the rudders enough because I can't physically
feel any movement with my feet. She told me that I am moving them, and that
it only requires very small movements, and the a/c is responding to my
miniscule inputs just nicely. Maybe my shoe soles are just too thick? :-)
Crash Lander

Crash Lander wrote
> Steep turns were a little more difficult. so half way through
> a turn, mother nature would say hello and push my nice 30 degree
> turn into a 45 degree turn for a brief second.

30 degrees angle of bank is not a steep turn, 45-60 degrees is.
REF...FAA Airplane Flying Handbook 9-1..
The steep turn maneuver consists of a turn in either
direction, using a bank angle between 45 to 60°. This
will cause an overbanking tendency during which
maximum turning performance is attained and
relatively high load factors are imposed. Because of the
high load factors imposed, these turns should be
performed at an airspeed that does not exceed the
airplane’s design maneuvering speed (VA). The
principles of an ordinary steep turn apply, but as a
practice maneuver the steep turns should be continued
until 360° or 720° of turn have been completed.

> So, now I have a total of 1.9 hours, with the next lesson
> booked for next weekend. Next lesson is Stalls, providing
> the weather affords us a high cloud ceiling. If not, it's
> landings apparently!

What happened to 'slow flight', 'ground reference maneuvers',
and 'traffic pattern' instruction and practice?

Sounds as if your instructor is doing the old 'walking before
crawling' routine.

I would highly recommend that you review the table of contents
for the Airplane Flying Handbook, FAA-H-8083-3A since it generally
outlines the normal flow of the flight training curriculum.
Note that 'landings' are covered in chapter 8 and everything in
the previous 7 chapters should have been taught and mastered
prior to landings.

Your instructor is putting the cart before the horse. Ground
reference maneuvers should be mastered before any attempt at teaching
the traffic pattern and the traffic pattern mastered before the
student is allowed that first 'crash'. :-)

The FAA-H-8083-3A in PDF format is available on-line at the FAA web
site, and will probably provide better instruction than you are
currently getting. Landings at 2 hours total time....rediculous,
one doesn't learn algebra before arithmetic.

> One thing I did notice, and I commented on it with my instructor, is
> that I don't feel that I am using the rudders enough because I can't
> physically feel any movement with my feet. She told me that I am
> moving them, and that it only requires very small movements, and the
> a/c is responding to my miniscule inputs just nicely. Maybe my shoe
> soles are just too thick? :-) Crash Lander

Yep!....I have my students take off those Reboks and learn in their
socks....it works.

Bob Moore
Flight Instructor, Airplanes/Instruments since 1970

> I actually enjoyed the descents for some reason. It's hard to
> explain why I felt that way. I think I maybe felt like it was ME flying,
> rather than the plane flying.

In a normal descent you can see more over the nose than in a normal
climb. Bet that contributed to your enjoyment too. :)

Keep it up!

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

> What happened to 'slow flight', 'ground reference maneuvers',
> and 'traffic pattern' instruction and practice?
>
> Sounds as if your instructor is doing the old 'walking before
> crawling' routine.

Sometimes that's a good idea. At least for me, if I have a framework
into which to put a lesson, I absorb it better. In this case, a few
stalls and a few landings, could set up a framework in which slow flight
and such makes sense.

Not everyone learns the same way.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Does your instructor use a syllabus, and provide you with a copy? Hard to
tell from where I am sitting, but it seems to me that you are being pushed
into things you are not ready for. Successfully, apparently, but the key to
flight training is the building block concept, where each new maneuver
depends on a foundation of basic elements learned and mastered earlier. She
may be having you install the front door before the crawl space has been
completed. ASA sells a syllabus for $6.95...should be available at your
local pilot supply shop, from Sporty's, or from the publisher at
1-800-asa2fly. Even if your instructor does not want to follow the syllabus,
it will give you an idea of what should be taught and in what sequence so
that you do not miss anything.

In a thread in another pilot forum, a shiny new private pilot admitted that
his instructor had never explained much of the communications information on
sectional charts and did not make the student aware that such a thing as an
Airport/Facility Directory even exists. How he got through the oral is a
mystery. So you need a "map" of the path your instruction will take.

Rudder use is a matter of pressures, not movements. Sounds like you are
doing just fine.

Bob Gardner

"Crash Lander" > wrote in message
...
> Well, just got back from my 2nd flying lesson.
> It was a perfectly clear day. Not a cloud to be seen. A little blustery on
> the ground, but nothing major.
> Today, I did my first take-off. I wasn't expecting it to be such an
> intense
> experience. It was much twitchier than I was expecting. Not really sure
> what
> I was expecting to be honest.
> Anyway, barrelled down the runway, and at 50kts gently pulled the stick
> back. Up we went. Pretty much nailed the climb rate which I was pleased
> about. I had been worried about pulling back too hard, or not enough.
> The air was fairly rough for the first 500ft, but then settled down, with
> the exception of a few hefty reminders that the wind was still about,
> thrown
> in for good measure.
> It had been just over 2 weeks since my first lesson, due to bad weather
> the
> previous weekend.After about 10 minutes or so, my instructor was satisfied
> I
> was once again comfortable with the handling of the a/c, and we moved onto
> todays lesson. Climbing and descending.
> We did about 3 step climbs, and she was satisfied I was understanding the
> concept well. After the 3rd one, I was feeling confident with it. Same
> with
> descents. I actually enjoyed the descents for some reason. It's hard to
> explain why I felt that way. I think I maybe felt like it was ME flying,
> rather than the plane flying. You know what I mean? I know I AM flying the
> plane, but it's hard to describe. Maybe it was because the power was down,
> and I could hear more, I don't know.
> Next was climbing turns and descending turns. Didn't really have any
> trouble
> with these, again, I enjoyed the descending turns a great deal! :-)
> Lastly, we covered medium turns and steep turns. Medium turns were fine,
> as
> most of my turns so far have been a bit closer to medium turns than
> shallow
> turns anyway! ;-)
> Steep turns were a little more difficult. On the first one, I lost some
> altitude, but on the second attampt I was within the 40-50ft tollerance
> she
> allowed me. Was getting a little more blustery by this stage too, so half
> way through a turn, mother nature would say hello and push my nice 30
> degree
> turn into a 45 degree turn for a brief second.
> So, now I have a total of 1.9 hours, with the next lesson booked for next
> weekend. Next lesson is Stalls, providing the weather affords us a high
> cloud ceiling. If not, it's landings apparently! My instructor says she
> thinks I'm progressing sufficiently well enough to proceed to the next
> steps
> so I must be doing ok. :-)
> One thing I did notice, and I commented on it with my instructor, is that
> I
> don't feel that I am using the rudders enough because I can't physically
> feel any movement with my feet. She told me that I am moving them, and
> that
> it only requires very small movements, and the a/c is responding to my
> miniscule inputs just nicely. Maybe my shoe soles are just too thick? :-)
> Crash Lander
>
>
>

Hi Crash;

Bob Moore and Gardner pretty much summed up what I would be saying to you at
this point.
I'm a bit confused by the progression path you seem to be on for a second
lesson.
I'm getting the picture that you are either a natural born Chuck Yeager or
your instructor might be pushing things a bit.
This having been said, I realize that any and all feedback you will be
getting here on the forum is after the fact and as such doesn't include the
on sight perspective of your instructor who is right there and has the
actual handle on what's going on.
For now, I'll assume you are doing QUITE WELL and your instructor is
allowing for this.
Anyway....keep us posted :-))
Sounds like you're having a ball.
Dudley


"Crash Lander" > wrote in message
...
> Well, just got back from my 2nd flying lesson.
> It was a perfectly clear day. Not a cloud to be seen. A little blustery on
> the ground, but nothing major.
> Today, I did my first take-off. I wasn't expecting it to be such an
> intense
> experience. It was much twitchier than I was expecting. Not really sure
> what
> I was expecting to be honest.
> Anyway, barrelled down the runway, and at 50kts gently pulled the stick
> back. Up we went. Pretty much nailed the climb rate which I was pleased
> about. I had been worried about pulling back too hard, or not enough.
> The air was fairly rough for the first 500ft, but then settled down, with
> the exception of a few hefty reminders that the wind was still about,
> thrown
> in for good measure.
> It had been just over 2 weeks since my first lesson, due to bad weather
> the
> previous weekend.After about 10 minutes or so, my instructor was satisfied
> I
> was once again comfortable with the handling of the a/c, and we moved onto
> todays lesson. Climbing and descending.
> We did about 3 step climbs, and she was satisfied I was understanding the
> concept well. After the 3rd one, I was feeling confident with it. Same
> with
> descents. I actually enjoyed the descents for some reason. It's hard to
> explain why I felt that way. I think I maybe felt like it was ME flying,
> rather than the plane flying. You know what I mean? I know I AM flying the
> plane, but it's hard to describe. Maybe it was because the power was down,
> and I could hear more, I don't know.
> Next was climbing turns and descending turns. Didn't really have any
> trouble
> with these, again, I enjoyed the descending turns a great deal! :-)
> Lastly, we covered medium turns and steep turns. Medium turns were fine,
> as
> most of my turns so far have been a bit closer to medium turns than
> shallow
> turns anyway! ;-)
> Steep turns were a little more difficult. On the first one, I lost some
> altitude, but on the second attampt I was within the 40-50ft tollerance
> she
> allowed me. Was getting a little more blustery by this stage too, so half
> way through a turn, mother nature would say hello and push my nice 30
> degree
> turn into a 45 degree turn for a brief second.
> So, now I have a total of 1.9 hours, with the next lesson booked for next
> weekend. Next lesson is Stalls, providing the weather affords us a high
> cloud ceiling. If not, it's landings apparently! My instructor says she
> thinks I'm progressing sufficiently well enough to proceed to the next
> steps
> so I must be doing ok. :-)
> One thing I did notice, and I commented on it with my instructor, is that
> I
> don't feel that I am using the rudders enough because I can't physically
> feel any movement with my feet. She told me that I am moving them, and
> that
> it only requires very small movements, and the a/c is responding to my
> miniscule inputs just nicely. Maybe my shoe soles are just too thick? :-)
> Crash Lander
>
>
>

Bob Gardner writes:

> Does your instructor use a syllabus, and provide you with a copy? Hard to
> tell from where I am sitting, but it seems to me that you are being pushed
> into things you are not ready for. Successfully, apparently, but the key to
> flight training is the building block concept, where each new maneuver
> depends on a foundation of basic elements learned and mastered earlier.

It may be a business decision. Students are more likely to continue
their studies if they do things that are interesting. If the boring
stuff is saved for last, not only are they likely to pay for more
lessons, even if they eventually quit, but they are more likely to put
up with the boring stuff later, if they've already invested a lot of
money in lessons. If the boring stuff comes first, some students may
give up right there, which brings about quite a loss of revenue.

As long as everything is covered eventually, does the order make a
difference?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote
> As long as everything is covered eventually, does the order make a
> difference?

Sure as hell does...try teaching a student to read before he
learns the alphabet. He may memorize the book, but still does
not know how to read.

Bob Moore

"Jose" > wrote in message
om...
>> I actually enjoyed the descents for some reason. It's hard to
>> explain why I felt that way. I think I maybe felt like it was ME flying,
>> rather than the plane flying.
>
> In a normal descent you can see more over the nose than in a normal climb.
> Bet that contributed to your enjoyment too. :)
>
> Keep it up!
>
> Jose
> --
I'd suggest that had a big part in it!
Crash ander

Mxsmanic wrote:
> ...
> It may be a business decision. Students are more likely to continue
> their studies if they do things that are interesting. If the boring
> stuff is saved for last, not only are they likely to pay for more
> lessons, even if they eventually quit, but they are more likely to put
> up with the boring stuff later, if they've already invested a lot of
> money in lessons. If the boring stuff comes first, some students may
> give up right there, which brings about quite a loss of revenue.

Always precede total BS with "may be." Makes it a safe
statement. But if you've never undergone any flight training,
much less have been a CFI, nor even ridden in a light GA
aircraft, you should accept the reality of how stupid your posts are.

F--

Bob Moore writes:

> Sure as hell does...try teaching a student to read before he
> learns the alphabet. He may memorize the book, but still does
> not know how to read.

Public schools did that for decades in the US. Of course, they
produced several generations of illiterates in consequence.

However, in this case, it's not clear that one lesson is a
prerequisite for another. Must one learn to fly patterns before
learning to land? (Or vice versa?)

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

TxSrv writes:

> Always precede total BS with "may be." Makes it a safe
> statement. But if you've never undergone any flight training,
> much less have been a CFI, nor even ridden in a light GA
> aircraft, you should accept the reality of how stupid your posts are.

The principles I've described are valid for any type of teaching.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

As usual you know not of what you speak. Flight training needs to be
taught in a somewhat stringent order. The syllabus is created in a
specific way in order for the student to grasp the concepts and progress
through the training with a minimum of cash being sucked out of the
students wallet. Any CFI's out there care to expand on this?

Real flying is quite unlike the simulator the you play with. Real flying
does not come with a pause button if things get hairy. You must crawl
before you walk. Walk before you run ect..

As far as the public schools here in the US go... How would you know how
they teach here? Did you ever attend a US public school? I for one had
to learn the alphabet before I started reading.

You seem to have a habit of throwing out a bunch of BS answers for
subjects you have no experience in. It is quite incredible to observe
actually.

You obviously are a troll and this is the last time I'll waste
keystrokes on you.

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ UMP

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Bob Moore writes:
>
>
>>Sure as hell does...try teaching a student to read before he
>>learns the alphabet. He may memorize the book, but still does
>>not know how to read.
>
>
> Public schools did that for decades in the US. Of course, they
> produced several generations of illiterates in consequence.
>
> However, in this case, it's not clear that one lesson is a
> prerequisite for another. Must one learn to fly patterns before
> learning to land? (Or vice versa?)
>

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message >
> 30 degrees angle of bank is not a steep turn, 45-60 degrees is.
> REF...FAA Airplane Flying Handbook 9-1..
> The steep turn maneuver consists of a turn in either
> direction, using a bank angle between 45 to 60°. This
> will cause an overbanking tendency during which
> maximum turning performance is attained and
> relatively high load factors are imposed. Because of the
> high load factors imposed, these turns should be
> performed at an airspeed that does not exceed the
> airplane's design maneuvering speed (VA). The
> principles of an ordinary steep turn apply, but as a
> practice maneuver the steep turns should be continued
> until 360° or 720° of turn have been completed.
>

Yes, you are of course correct. She did say steep turns were 45-60 degrees.
I should have said 'steeper' turns.


> What happened to 'slow flight', 'ground reference maneuvers',
> and 'traffic pattern' instruction and practice?

We're talking about a Skyfox Gazelle here, so all flight is 'slow flight'
:-) This is essentially an ultra light, or what you in the US would call
your 'Sport Class' aircraft. I won't have a PPL at the end of this, but a
Recreational Pilots Certificate. I will be able to transfer to a PPL at the
end with I think 5 hours and a checkride, plus an exam I think.

> Sounds as if your instructor is doing the old 'walking before
> crawling' routine.
>

The syllabus I am following is from a set of manuals for ultra light pilots.
The order of lessons straight from the text is:

1. Effects of Control
2. Straight and level flight
3. medium turns
4. climbing
5. descending
6. climbing turns
7. descending turns
8. Basic stall recovery
9. Circuits and landings
10. Simulated engine failure in the circuit
11. Simulated engine failure after take off
12. crosswind circuits and landings
13. Advanced stall recovery
14. sideslip approaches
15. forced landings
16. Precautionary search
17. Level steep turns
18. Steep descending turns
19. short field technique.

So, I am progressing through this in the correct documented order (for an
ultra light pilots syllabus). If one is to get through this in the minimum
20 hours, one must surely progress through it at a rate not all that
dissimilar to the rate at which I am. (I would have thought!) Sure, if I
need longer on a particular subject, then I'll spend more time on it.
Crash Lander

Jon Kraus writes:

> As usual you know not of what you speak. Flight training needs to be
> taught in a somewhat stringent order. The syllabus is created in a
> specific way in order for the student to grasp the concepts and progress
> through the training with a minimum of cash being sucked out of the
> students wallet.

Some schools may not wish to minimize the amount of revenue they
receive from each student.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
. 121...
>
> What happened to 'slow flight', 'ground reference maneuvers',
> and 'traffic pattern' instruction and practice?
>

A syllabus is all well and good, but I always allow my students to fly
whatever portion of a flight they are capable of, and to learn the maximum from
each flight. Last time I checked, every flight unavoidably includes at least
one takeoff, one landing, and associated pattern work; so introduction to TO,
landing & pattern starts with the first lesson.

I have done a lot of commercial glider rides, which always included stick
time if the passenger was willing. I have even had (once or twice) a totally
inexperienced passenger do a successful pattern all the way to touchdown.

Vaughn

Vaughn Simon wrote
> A syllabus is all well and good, but I always allow my students
> to fly
> whatever portion of a flight they are capable of, and to learn the
> maximum from each flight. Last time I checked, every flight
> unavoidably includes at least one takeoff, one landing, and associated
> pattern work; so introduction to TO, landing & pattern starts with the
> first lesson.

Yep! There are teachers and then there are demonstrators. I know
which one that I am....how about you?

Bob Moore
Flight Instructor ASEL-I
Ground Instructor Advanced/Instrument
ATP B-707 B-727 L-188
USN S-2F P-2V P-3B

"Crash Lander" > wrote in message
...
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> k.net...
>> Hi Crash;
>> Sounds like you're having a ball.
>> Dudley
>
> I am DH, thanks.
> BTW, had a good look at your IFPF site the other day. Very impressive
> stuff mate! Also had a read about the Alexis Park Inn. Great story Jay!
> Makes me want to go out and find a failing motel and follow your
> footsteps! :-)
> Crash Lander

An earlier life I think :-))

DH

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
k.net...
> Hi Crash;
> Sounds like you're having a ball.
> Dudley

I am DH, thanks.
BTW, had a good look at your IFPF site the other day. Very impressive stuff
mate! Also had a read about the Alexis Park Inn. Great story Jay! Makes me
want to go out and find a failing motel and follow your footsteps! :-)
Crash Lander

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
. 122...
> Vaughn Simon wrote
>
> Yep! There are teachers and then there are demonstrators. I know
> which one that I am....how about you?
>
My style is to stay as "hands off" the controls as possible, (Don't take me
too literally, some things obviously must be demonstrated)

In some ways, we derive our teaching style from our own CFIs. Sometimes the
example is negative and we resolve to NOT be like our own CFIs. When I soloed,
I had never once been given the opportunity to fly an entire flight without my
CFI grabbing the controls and giving me some "advice". Thusly, when I finally
soloed, there was no way that he or I could know for 100% sure that I was
capable of putting all of the pieces together into a safe flight. (As it turned
out, I could)

For this reason, as a CFI I have never soloed a student until I have taken
at least one flight (sometimes several) with that student with my mouth zipped
shut and my hands totally off the controls. (I make notes for a good debriefing
on the ground) I never announce this in advance, and always feel free to change
my mind in mid-lesson; but if it works out I explain on the ground that they
just passed a "virtual solo".

Vaughn

"Vaughn Simon" > wrote in message
...
> My style is to stay as "hands off" the controls as possible, (Don't
> take me too literally, some things obviously must be demonstrated)
>
> In some ways, we derive our teaching style from our own CFIs.
> Sometimes the example is negative and we resolve to NOT be like our own
> CFIs. When I soloed, I had never once been given the opportunity to fly
> an entire flight without my CFI grabbing the controls and giving me some
> "advice". Thusly, when I finally soloed, there was no way that he or I
> could know for 100% sure that I was capable of putting all of the pieces
> together into a safe flight. (As it turned out, I could)
>
> For this reason, as a CFI I have never soloed a student until I have
> taken at least one flight (sometimes several) with that student with my
> mouth zipped shut and my hands totally off the controls. (I make notes
> for a good debriefing on the ground) I never announce this in advance,
> and always feel free to change my mind in mid-lesson; but if it works out
> I explain on the ground that they just passed a "virtual solo".
>
> Vaughn
>

God bless you. I was with a new and unknown to me CFI for an pre-rent check
sometime back. He wouldn't keep his hands off things or keep his mouth shut
long enough for me to show that I knew anything. Now this wouldn't have
normally been a deal killer but I had never flown this particular plane
before and I wasn't going to get a lot of time in it before I loaded my
family in it for some site seeing flights.

After about 30 minutes of this we were in the pattern and doing our third
touch and go that he did not let me complete and I brought the plane to a
full stop and cleared the runway. I asked him if he was the only instructor
on duty that day when he said, "No." I taxied back to the FBO hopped out and
went inside and asked for another CFI. It happened to be the owner and we
went flying for about another 30 minutes and had a nice chat while I flew
the plane.

I have no idea what the owner said to the CFI but He didn't charge me for
any of the instructor portion of either flight. I rented 4 or 5 hours from
him the rest of the week and never saw the kid again.