http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYfhC9ft_hk

The question should be "isn't that crown a little too close to the runway?"


"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYfhC9ft_hk
>

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYfhC9ft_hk
>
>
It's not you. I received a tape on this aircraft yesterday from within
our flight safety community for air shows. He came extremely close to
catching a wingtip on both the takeoff and a later pass; both times to
the left.
In our opinion, this was a VERY close call and totally unnecessary.
Things are bad enough in the demonstration and display community this
year without a pilot like this one making it worse.
It's being investigated.

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote:
> Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYfhC9ft_hk
>>
> It's not you. I received a tape on this aircraft yesterday from within
> our flight safety community for air shows. He came extremely close to
> catching a wingtip on both the takeoff and a later pass; both times to
> the left.
> In our opinion, this was a VERY close call and totally unnecessary.
> Things are bad enough in the demonstration and display community this
> year without a pilot like this one making it worse.
> It's being investigated.

10 pages and growing of discussion over on
PPRuNe.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=292517

It's just you. The plane flies parallel and with sufficient distance to
the crowd, so even if he'd hit the ground, nobody would have been in
danger. The folks you see on the ground are not spectators but airshow
stuff or pilots.

Whether the pilot put himself in danger is another question. I can't and
won't judge it, but even if he were, that's what airshow pilots do
routinely.

And concerning Dudley's "our flight safety community for air shows", I'm
looking forward with interest what they intend to investigate about a
Portugese registered airplane flying in Portugal...

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> It's just you. The plane flies parallel and with sufficient distance to
> the crowd, so even if he'd hit the ground, nobody would have been in
> danger. The folks you see on the ground are not spectators but airshow
> stuff or pilots.

Yes, and heaven knows that it is acceptable to put pilots and their parked
aircraft at an unnecessary risk.

>
> Whether the pilot put himself in danger is another question. I can't and
> won't judge it, but even if he were, that's what airshow pilots do
> routinely.

No. Their goal is to entertain the crowd but NOT put themselves in danger.


>
> And concerning Dudley's "our flight safety community for air shows", I'm
> looking forward with interest what they intend to investigate about a
> Portugese registered airplane flying in Portugal...

While there is no unified set of rules for airshows, there are governing
bodies in all developed countries. Those governing bodies usually react
with disapproval on stupid pilot tricks (at airshows or otherwise) which put
the public at risk.

Stefan wrote:
> It's just you. The plane flies parallel and with sufficient distance to
> the crowd, so even if he'd hit the ground, nobody would have been in
> danger. The folks you see on the ground are not spectators but airshow
> stuff or pilots.
>
> Whether the pilot put himself in danger is another question. I can't and
> won't judge it, but even if he were, that's what airshow pilots do
> routinely.
>
> And concerning Dudley's "our flight safety community for air shows", I'm
> looking forward with interest what they intend to investigate about a
> Portugese registered airplane flying in Portugal...

It most certainly isn't him as I said.
The issues involved with air show flight safety involve much more than
crowd safety. It involves ANY incident or occurrence involved with
display and demonstration flying and that venue's peripheral issues.
In this case, this incident is of "concern" if nothing else, to the
entire demonstration community.
There exists within the air show community a HUGE mailing list comprised
of both current and ex- display pilots who devote copious amounts of
their time discussing ways to make the venue safer for everyone concerned.
You may see the result of this "inside communication" going on within
the community by obtaining a copy of Gen Des Barker's book "Zero Error
Margin"; a complete and in-depth study of air show accidents over the
past 3 decades with input in this volume from hundreds of display pilots
military and civilian, past and present, including myself.
I will be most happy to supply you with information to obtain this book
by back channel contact if you wish. I believe it is still available
after the first printing.
Since the display communities reach is international, the event in
Portugal is nothing unusual for us to be discussing; same for the
Hurricane accident this week in the UK. Both are now under review, and
recommendations no doubt will be made through proper channels that
addresses the pertinent issues in the hope that the flight safety
picture will be enhanced for the future.
It is partially through the input of the air show community's
representatives that changes are suggested to and implemented by the
various governing agencies throughout the world who control the
demonstration safety issues.
It's a tough business and there are many of us out here who have
dedicated our lives to helping in any way possible the betterment of
flight safety on the air show demonstration circuit.
This year has been especially hard and many lives have been lost.
It is in part the observation, and involvement of the world's display
pilots, in constant communication with each other, who are trying to
make it a safer environment for all involved.


--
Dudley Henriques

On Sep 20, 2:31 am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:

> In our opinion, this was a VERY close call and totally unnecessary.
> Things are bad enough in the demonstration and display community this
> year without a pilot like this one making it worse.
> It's being investigated.

I believe that watching the videos alone isn't givng a clear picture
here. The airfield in question I suspect has geographical aspects
that provide the spectators a different perception of risk than that
which is actually present. Ie, the other side of the runway is lower
than the rest of the airfield. The aircraft parked on the flightline
also contribute a bit to the illusion I think.

The pass was certainly low and close to the crowd, but I don't think
it was too much lower than I've seen here in New Zealand from similar
heavies (727 and 757 from the RNZAF mainly).

Kyle Boatright wrote:

>> danger. The folks you see on the ground are not spectators but airshow
>> staff or pilots.

> Yes, and heaven knows that it is acceptable to put pilots and their parked
> aircraft at an unnecessary risk.

The spectators are usually laypersons and can't judge the risks, so it's
the organisator's and the pilot's responibility to protect them.
Contributing airshow pilots however can judge the risks (I would hope!),
and if they decide to deliberately stand there during a flyby, it's
their choice.

>> Whether the pilot put himself in danger is another question. I can't and
>> won't judge it, but even if he were, that's what airshow pilots do
>> routinely.

> No. Their goal is to entertain the crowd but NOT put themselves in danger.

You can read, can't you? Where did I say it was their goal to endanger
themselves? It's their goal to entertain (and probably also a bit to
show off, I dare to assume), and to reach that goal, they accept to take
risks.

BTW, they take routinely much bigger risks than that low flying
airliner. Flying inverted a couple of feet above the runway is *much*
more risky, yet done routinely at airshows and I've yet to see a post
about that here. Probably the most stupid thing done at airshows is the
"inverted ribbon cut", but you see it everywhere and nobody seems to
care. E.g. http://youtube.com/watch?v=sCbwRzgJLhk. In that particular
video you also see one low level pull in which the pilot nearly stalls
the plane. Most dangerous at that altitude, but people don't even
realize the situation. The same goes for those stupid low level flicks
shortly after take off. E.g. http://youtube.com/watch?v=Uy0KkqFf_bU
Extremely risky, because in a flick you have *never* 100% control. Yet
nobody seems to care. But an airliner flying low... wow, *this* is going
to cause discussions! It reminds me somewhat of the quality of certain
newspaper reports which have been discussed here on a regular basis.

BTW, I don't say that I like such displays. Actually I hate them, and I
don't attend airshows for that very reason. I do attend aerobatic
competitions, though, because they are flown at a safe altitude.
Besides, the flying there is mostly better (i.e. more precise), albeit
less spectacular.

> bodies in all developed countries. Those governing bodies usually react
> with disapproval on stupid pilot tricks (at airshows or otherwise) which put
> the public at risk.

You can read, can't you? It was my point that the public wasn't put at risk.

Stefan

Here's a couple more angles.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/09/17...ora-air-show.html
Crash Lander
--
Straight and Level Down Under.
http://www.straightandleveldownunder.net/

James Sleeman wrote:
> On Sep 20, 2:31 am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>
>> In our opinion, this was a VERY close call and totally unnecessary.
>> Things are bad enough in the demonstration and display community this
>> year without a pilot like this one making it worse.
>> It's being investigated.
>
> I believe that watching the videos alone isn't givng a clear picture
> here. The airfield in question I suspect has geographical aspects
> that provide the spectators a different perception of risk than that
> which is actually present. Ie, the other side of the runway is lower
> than the rest of the airfield. The aircraft parked on the flightline
> also contribute a bit to the illusion I think.
>
> The pass was certainly low and close to the crowd, but I don't think
> it was too much lower than I've seen here in New Zealand from similar
> heavies (727 and 757 from the RNZAF mainly).
>


The problem wasn't the low pass as much as the left bank without enough
pitch input to compensate for the lift loss.
He was extremely lucky, and I'm getting this from all over the world
from the guys who were there and in the know :-)
DH

--
Dudley Henriques

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> Kyle Boatright wrote:
>
>>> danger. The folks you see on the ground are not spectators but airshow
>>> staff or pilots.
>
>> Yes, and heaven knows that it is acceptable to put pilots and their
>> parked aircraft at an unnecessary risk.
>
> The spectators are usually laypersons and can't judge the risks, so it's
> the organisator's and the pilot's responibility to protect them.
> Contributing airshow pilots however can judge the risks (I would hope!),
> and if they decide to deliberately stand there during a flyby, it's their
> choice.
>
>>> Whether the pilot put himself in danger is another question. I can't and
>>> won't judge it, but even if he were, that's what airshow pilots do
>>> routinely.
>
>> No. Their goal is to entertain the crowd but NOT put themselves in
>> danger.
>
> You can read, can't you? Where did I say it was their goal to endanger
> themselves? It's their goal to entertain (and probably also a bit to show
> off, I dare to assume), and to reach that goal, they accept to take risks.
>
> BTW, they take routinely much bigger risks than that low flying airliner.
> Flying inverted a couple of feet above the runway is *much* more risky,
> yet done routinely at airshows and I've yet to see a post about that here.
> Probably the most stupid thing done at airshows is the "inverted ribbon
> cut", but you see it everywhere and nobody seems to care. E.g.
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=sCbwRzgJLhk. In that particular video you also
> see one low level pull in which the pilot nearly stalls the plane. Most
> dangerous at that altitude, but people don't even realize the situation.
> The same goes for those stupid low level flicks shortly after take off.
> E.g. http://youtube.com/watch?v=Uy0KkqFf_bU Extremely risky, because in a
> flick you have *never* 100% control. Yet nobody seems to care. But an
> airliner flying low... wow, *this* is going to cause discussions! It
> reminds me somewhat of the quality of certain newspaper reports which have
> been discussed here on a regular basis.
>
> BTW, I don't say that I like such displays. Actually I hate them, and I
> don't attend airshows for that very reason. I do attend aerobatic
> competitions, though, because they are flown at a safe altitude. Besides,
> the flying there is mostly better (i.e. more precise), albeit less
> spectacular.
>
>> bodies in all developed countries. Those governing bodies usually react
>> with disapproval on stupid pilot tricks (at airshows or otherwise) which
>> put the public at risk.
>
> You can read, can't you? It was my point that the public wasn't put at
> risk.


The public WAS put at risk. Those spectators, some of whom may be pilots?
At risk. Anyone within a couple of miles of the airport? At risk. Clip a
wingtip and that multi-hundred thousand pound bundle of aluminum, steel,
titanium, and jet fuel could end up virtually anywhere within a few miles of
the airport.

>
> Stefan

Kyle Boatright wrote:

> wingtip and that multi-hundred thousand pound bundle of aluminum, steel,
> titanium, and jet fuel could end up virtually anywhere within a few miles of
> the airport.

Did you ever hear of the principle of conservation of linear momentum?

"Stefan" <> wrote
>
> Did you ever hear of the principle of conservation of linear momentum?

What happens to parts of the aircraft if it clips a wing tip, and starts
spinning? It is certainly probable, and possibly even probable that some
parts of the aircraft could be flung in the direction of the crowd, if it
was spinning into the ground.
--
Jim in NC

Morgans writes:

> What happens to parts of the aircraft if it clips a wing tip, and starts
> spinning?

It generally will not, precisely because of that momentum thing. Instead, it
will continue flying with a damaged wing tip and some perturbation of the
flight path and handling characteristics.

> It is certainly probable, and possibly even probable that some
> parts of the aircraft could be flung in the direction of the crowd, if it
> was spinning into the ground.

Just from hitting a wing tip against something? Do you really think the
insignificant force from clipping a wing tip can swing 200 tons of aircraft
through 90 degrees and a 200-foot radius towards a crowd? The laws of physics
don't allow that.

Morgans wrote:
> "Stefan" <> wrote
>> Did you ever hear of the principle of conservation of linear momentum?
>
> What happens to parts of the aircraft if it clips a wing tip, and starts
> spinning? It is certainly probable, and possibly even probable that some
> parts of the aircraft could be flung in the direction of the crowd, if it
> was spinning into the ground.

In this particular film clip involving the Air Bus, had this aircraft
caught his left tip while initiating a left bank at the airspeed he was
maintaining through the pass, the best guess I'm getting from those I
know who have seen the clip is an immediate nose down moment resulting
in ground impact of the aircraft.
In short, it had all the potential of being a real mess.
After viewing the clip myself, I totally agree with this assessment. It
was an EXTREMELY dangerous moment!
Naturally, there is no way to be absolutely certain of any reaction of
the aircraft, but my money says it was a very bad moment.

--
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" <> wrote

> In this particular film clip involving the Air Bus, had this aircraft
> caught his left tip while initiating a left bank at the airspeed he was
> maintaining through the pass, the best guess I'm getting from those I know
> who have seen the clip is an immediate nose down moment resulting in
> ground impact of the aircraft.
> In short, it had all the potential of being a real mess.
> After viewing the clip myself, I totally agree with this assessment. It
> was an EXTREMELY dangerous moment!
> Naturally, there is no way to be absolutely certain of any reaction of the
> aircraft, but my money says it was a very bad moment.

A few years back, they were landing on 18 at OSH, and had everyone doing big
180 degree turns from downwind, to final. It was quite windy, and gusty,
and there was a pretty sizeable crosswind component.

The EAA B-17 came in, and right near the last part of his turn, he was a
little lower than he wanted to be. A particularly big series of gust came
up, and he ended up with his wingtip VERY near the ground.

The end result nearly had me soiling my pants. I thought for an instant
that I was going to witness a very bad event. As I recall, he actually hit
a runway (or taxiway) light with his wing tip. You can believe that was an
anxious moment for the pilot, and for everyone watching it.

I'm glad the outcome was just a dinged up wing, and no more. It could have
been very bad, indeed.
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:
> "Dudley Henriques" <> wrote
>
>> In this particular film clip involving the Air Bus, had this aircraft
>> caught his left tip while initiating a left bank at the airspeed he was
>> maintaining through the pass, the best guess I'm getting from those I know
>> who have seen the clip is an immediate nose down moment resulting in
>> ground impact of the aircraft.
>> In short, it had all the potential of being a real mess.
>> After viewing the clip myself, I totally agree with this assessment. It
>> was an EXTREMELY dangerous moment!
>> Naturally, there is no way to be absolutely certain of any reaction of the
>> aircraft, but my money says it was a very bad moment.
>
> A few years back, they were landing on 18 at OSH, and had everyone doing big
> 180 degree turns from downwind, to final. It was quite windy, and gusty,
> and there was a pretty sizeable crosswind component.
>
> The EAA B-17 came in, and right near the last part of his turn, he was a
> little lower than he wanted to be. A particularly big series of gust came
> up, and he ended up with his wingtip VERY near the ground.
>
> The end result nearly had me soiling my pants. I thought for an instant
> that I was going to witness a very bad event. As I recall, he actually hit
> a runway (or taxiway) light with his wing tip. You can believe that was an
> anxious moment for the pilot, and for everyone watching it.
>
> I'm glad the outcome was just a dinged up wing, and no more. It could have
> been very bad, indeed.


Catching a tip can go many different ways with the physics. Sometimes
all you get is a scrape, but even then the angle would have to be fairly
flat and the ground flat as well; but most of the time when a sudden
ground contact catches a tip, especially in a turn, the low wing is
descending into the contact rather than glancing flat into it and the
result in that case can be VERY bad!
D

--
Dudley Henriques

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Morgans writes:
>
>> What happens to parts of the aircraft if it clips a wing tip, and
>> starts spinning?
>
> It generally will not, precisely because of that momentum thing.
> Instead, it will continue flying with a damaged wing tip and some
> perturbation of the flight path and handling characteristics.


You have no idea, do you?

>
>> It is certainly probable, and possibly even probable that some
>> parts of the aircraft could be flung in the direction of the crowd,
>> if it was spinning into the ground.
>
> Just from hitting a wing tip against something? Do you really think
> the insignificant force from clipping a wing tip can swing 200 tons of
> aircraft through 90 degrees and a 200-foot radius towards a crowd?
> The laws of physics don't allow that.
>
You really have no idea, do you?


Get your head out of your ass.

Oh wait, maybe not, Who'd want to look at our face?



Bertie

"Mxsmanic" > wrote

> Just from hitting a wing tip against something? Do you really think the
> insignificant force from clipping a wing tip can swing 200 tons of
> aircraft
> through 90 degrees and a 200-foot radius towards a crowd? The laws of
> physics
> don't allow that.

GET THE HELL OUT OF THIS GROUP ! ! !

DON'T EVER ANSWER ONE OF MY POSTS, YOU MISERABLE PIECE OF **** ! ! !

YOU ARE NOT WANTED HERE.

YOU DO NOT CONTRIBUTE HERE.

YOUR ONLY DESIRE TO BE HERE IS TO RECEIVE ABUSE.

GET YOUR ABUSE SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Damn. There goes another thread, hijacked to hell.
--
Jim in NC

On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:53:55 -0400, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"Mxsmanic" > wrote
>
>> Just from hitting a wing tip against something? Do you really think the
>> insignificant force from clipping a wing tip can swing 200 tons of
>> aircraft
>> through 90 degrees and a 200-foot radius towards a crowd? The laws of
>> physics
>> don't allow that.
>
>GET THE HELL OUT OF THIS GROUP ! ! !
>
>DON'T EVER ANSWER ONE OF MY POSTS, YOU MISERABLE PIECE OF **** ! ! !
>
>YOU ARE NOT WANTED HERE.
>
>YOU DO NOT CONTRIBUTE HERE.
>
>YOUR ONLY DESIRE TO BE HERE IS TO RECEIVE ABUSE.
>
>GET YOUR ABUSE SOMEWHERE ELSE.
>
>Damn. There goes another thread, hijacked to hell.

I thought this thread was going well until I saw your reply.
I have 'mxsmanic' in my KILL filter so I don't see his posts :-)
As you say this will be yet another post hijacked :-(

Morgans writes:

> GET THE HELL OUT OF THIS GROUP ! ! !
>
> DON'T EVER ANSWER ONE OF MY POSTS, YOU MISERABLE PIECE OF **** ! ! !
>
> YOU ARE NOT WANTED HERE.
>
> YOU DO NOT CONTRIBUTE HERE.
>
> YOUR ONLY DESIRE TO BE HERE IS TO RECEIVE ABUSE.
>
> GET YOUR ABUSE SOMEWHERE ELSE.

No.

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Morgans writes:
>
>> GET THE HELL OUT OF THIS GROUP ! ! !
>>
>> DON'T EVER ANSWER ONE OF MY POSTS, YOU MISERABLE PIECE OF **** ! ! !
>>
>> YOU ARE NOT WANTED HERE.
>>
>> YOU DO NOT CONTRIBUTE HERE.
>>
>> YOUR ONLY DESIRE TO BE HERE IS TO RECEIVE ABUSE.
>>
>> GET YOUR ABUSE SOMEWHERE ELSE.
>
> No.
>

Whew.

Close call.


Bertie

wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:53:55 -0400, "Morgans"
> > wrote:
>
>> "Mxsmanic" > wrote
>>
>>> Just from hitting a wing tip against something? Do you really think the
>>> insignificant force from clipping a wing tip can swing 200 tons of
>>> aircraft
>>> through 90 degrees and a 200-foot radius towards a crowd? The laws of
>>> physics
>>> don't allow that.
>> GET THE HELL OUT OF THIS GROUP ! ! !
>>
>> DON'T EVER ANSWER ONE OF MY POSTS, YOU MISERABLE PIECE OF **** ! ! !
>>
>> YOU ARE NOT WANTED HERE.
>>
>> YOU DO NOT CONTRIBUTE HERE.
>>
>> YOUR ONLY DESIRE TO BE HERE IS TO RECEIVE ABUSE.
>>
>> GET YOUR ABUSE SOMEWHERE ELSE.
>>
>> Damn. There goes another thread, hijacked to hell.
>
> I thought this thread was going well until I saw your reply.
> I have 'mxsmanic' in my KILL filter so I don't see his posts :-)
> As you say this will be yet another post hijacked :-(

Yes, the only thing worse than mxsmaniac are the idiots who reply to his
posts.

"Bertie the Bunyip" < wrote
>
> Whew.
>
> Close call.

Yeah, I wondered if the other shoe was going to drop, all that time.

It took him that long to come up with that witty answer. ;-)
--
Jim in NC

On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:24:08 -0400, Dudley Henriques
> wrote:

>Morgans wrote:
>> "Dudley Henriques" <> wrote
>>
>>> In this particular film clip involving the Air Bus, had this aircraft
>>> caught his left tip while initiating a left bank at the airspeed he was
>>> maintaining through the pass, the best guess I'm getting from those I know
>>> who have seen the clip is an immediate nose down moment resulting in
>>> ground impact of the aircraft.
>>> In short, it had all the potential of being a real mess.
>>> After viewing the clip myself, I totally agree with this assessment. It
>>> was an EXTREMELY dangerous moment!
>>> Naturally, there is no way to be absolutely certain of any reaction of the
>>> aircraft, but my money says it was a very bad moment.
>>
>> A few years back, they were landing on 18 at OSH, and had everyone doing big
>> 180 degree turns from downwind, to final. It was quite windy, and gusty,
>> and there was a pretty sizeable crosswind component.
>>
>> The EAA B-17 came in, and right near the last part of his turn, he was a
>> little lower than he wanted to be. A particularly big series of gust came
>> up, and he ended up with his wingtip VERY near the ground.
>>

I was taking off on 27 with a direct head wind. The temp was well
above 90 and I had all 4 seats full as well as the tanks. OTOH we were
still under gross for the temp. We had just about reached rotation
when the wind abruptly changed 90 degrees to the left. so it was out
of the south. It was actually blowing us sideways with full aileron
and max rudder. With full aileron and rudder I could no longer
accelerate and we were slowly moving to the right. The wind was well
in excess of the Deb's capability so it was either try to haul it
off and accelerate in ground effect or slow down while letting it
weathervane into the wind which would most likely have taken out the
gear and I had no desire to be sliding toward a tip tank full of gas
while it was being ground up. I hauled it off into ground effect and
the nose slewed a good 45 degrees to the left leaving us going down
the runway sideways. The heads popping up in the north 40 made it
look like a prairie dog town.. Flying with your wheels only a few
inches off the pavement while going sideways is one of those *intense*
moments that seems to last almost forever. Your margin for error is
almost non existent.

>> The end result nearly had me soiling my pants. I thought for an instant
>> that I was going to witness a very bad event. As I recall, he actually hit
>> a runway (or taxiway) light with his wing tip. You can believe that was an
>> anxious moment for the pilot, and for everyone watching it.
>>
>> I'm glad the outcome was just a dinged up wing, and no more. It could have
>> been very bad, indeed.
>
>
>Catching a tip can go many different ways with the physics. Sometimes
>all you get is a scrape, but even then the angle would have to be fairly
>flat and the ground flat as well; but most of the time when a sudden
>ground contact catches a tip, especially in a turn, the low wing is
>descending into the contact rather than glancing flat into it and the
>result in that case can be VERY bad!

A few years back I was less than 100 yards from the Corsair that hit
the bearcat on the runway at Oshkosh.. Although the F4U is a big
piston fighter from the WWII era it is tiny compared to this monster.
At 100 yards from the F4U most of us were turning away due to the
heat. Imagine what it'd be like from a few 100,000 gallons of jet A..
BTW when that wing tip hit it dug in.

I also had a very good view of the one wheel landing made by Old Crow
on 36 with a cross wind no less. The pilot did an outstanding job of
holding it on that one wheel until it could no longer stay up. Even
then she fought the cross wind until the wing tip finally left the
pavement. As soon as it touched the sod it grabbed and made that P-51
flip around like a "Frisbee", but at least it was flat and stopped
backwards against the build up for one of the cross taxiways. To me
that appeared to be one outstanding job of flying the plane until it
was parked.

Roger (K8RI)
>D
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com