I should like to draw your attention to the fact that Robin Olds was a
Brigadier General in the United States Airforce.

It is appropriate to refer to him as Brigadier General Olds. Not 'Mr' Olds.


Colonel Beverly Carmichael
US Airforce (Retired)

> Beverly Carmichael > wrote:

> It is appropriate to refer to him as Brigadier General Olds. Not 'Mr' Olds.

Well Bev.... We have all met people like that.

Pompous people who even when retired insist that every one from
children to their parents address them by their title.

Why I'll bet a plugged nickle that on a saturday night down at the
lodge you insist that everyone call you Colonel instead of just plain
old Bev. And I'll bet the more beers you have in your belly the more
you insists on being called Colonel.


> Colonel Beverly Carmichael
> US Airforce (Retired)

Beverly Carmichael wrote:
>
> I should like to draw your attention to the fact that Robin Olds was a
> Brigadier General in the United States Airforce.
>
> It is appropriate to refer to him as Brigadier General Olds. Not 'Mr' Olds.
>
> Colonel Beverly Carmichael
> US Airforce (Retired)

i'd like to draw your attention to the fact that he's dead, so he's the
"late whatever title you use".....

also, you come across as a pompous lifer pig, so go make a Power Point
briefing and leave the rest of us alone.

redc1c4,
"Officers exist to attend meetings and sign for ****."
--
"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear
considerable watching."

Army Officer's Guide

Beverly Carmichael wrote:

> I should like to draw your attention to the fact that Robin Olds was a
> Brigadier General in the United States Airforce.
>
> It is appropriate to refer to him as Brigadier General Olds. Not 'Mr' Olds.
>
> Colonel Beverly Carmichael
> US Airforce (Retired)



When did "Air Force" become one word?

Did we miss something?

BobbyG

General Olds is a triple ace who earned his title many time over, from his
service in World War II through Vietnam.

You, on the other hand, are a petty little twit who cannot possibly conceive
of what it is to serve one's country and lead a meaningful life. Otherwise,
you would not try to degrade those who are obviously better than you.


"shiver" > wrote in message
...
>> Beverly Carmichael > wrote:
>
>> It is appropriate to refer to him as Brigadier General Olds. Not 'Mr'
>> Olds.
>
> Well Bev.... We have all met people like that.
>
> Pompous people who even when retired insist that every one from
> children to their parents address them by their title.
>
> Why I'll bet a plugged nickle that on a saturday night down at the
> lodge you insist that everyone call you Colonel instead of just plain
> old Bev. And I'll bet the more beers you have in your belly the more
> you insists on being called Colonel.
>
>
>> Colonel Beverly Carmichael
>> US Airforce (Retired)

"Beverly Carmichael" > wrote in message
. 190.155...
>I should like to draw your attention to the fact that Robin Olds was a
> Brigadier General in the United States Airforce.
>
> It is appropriate to refer to him as Brigadier General Olds. Not 'Mr'
> Olds.
>
>
> Colonel Beverly Carmichael
> US Airforce (Retired)

Make me my dinner, woman!

David Pride wrote:
> General Olds is a triple ace who earned his title many time over, from his
> service in World War II through Vietnam.
>
> You, on the other hand, are a petty little twit who cannot possibly conceive
> of what it is to serve one's country and lead a meaningful life. Otherwise,
> you would not try to degrade those who are obviously better than you.
>
>
> "shiver" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> Beverly Carmichael > wrote:
>>> It is appropriate to refer to him as Brigadier General Olds. Not 'Mr'
>>> Olds.
>> Well Bev.... We have all met people like that.
>>
>> Pompous people who even when retired insist that every one from
>> children to their parents address them by their title.
>>
>> Why I'll bet a plugged nickle that on a saturday night down at the
>> lodge you insist that everyone call you Colonel instead of just plain
>> old Bev. And I'll bet the more beers you have in your belly the more
>> you insists on being called Colonel.
>>
>>
>>> Colonel Beverly Carmichael
>>> US Airforce (Retired)
>
>
What's "degrading" about mocking the pompous? If you'd read the message
the man is mocking the "Colonel", not the the subject of the title.

--
Moving things in still pictures!

Not if your a civilian.. Many such as myself prefer to use the title out of
courtesy, however it is not required and some sticklers for protocol and
etiquette would even argue against civilians using titles outside of formal
circles. When was the last time a Major in the American Army ever insisted
upon still being referred to as Major in his retirement??? Other members of
the military may call him by his title at formal events but rarely of ever
at civilian events. Besides I seriously doubt that a man such as Robin Olds
would take offence at your perceived slight.

But Ms. Beverly Carmichael, if you insist upon being formal in a
civilian multinational newsgroup (many of whom come from nations with
similar but different protocols), I don't mind at all.

Andrew





"Beverly Carmichael" > wrote in message
. 190.155...
>I should like to draw your attention to the fact that Robin Olds was a
> Brigadier General in the United States Airforce.
>
> It is appropriate to refer to him as Brigadier General Olds. Not 'Mr'
> Olds.
>
>
> Colonel Beverly Carmichael
> US Airforce (Retired)

> David Pride > wrote:

> You, on the other hand, are a petty little twit who cannot possibly conceive
> of what it is to serve one's country and lead a meaningful life.

Your personal comments about me have nothing to do with the issue at
hand.

Many of us have met people under social settings where some priggish
asshole demands the respect due them by insisting that they be refered
to as Doctor, or Colonel, or even Brigadier General.

Today some (retired) Colonel came into this group to not only tell us
what was the appropriate salutation for this man, but to make sure we
all knew that they themselves were a Colonel (retired) in the
US Air Force.

Who the **** cares.

TO THE GROUP - CORRECT ME ( AS USUAL ) IF I AM WRONG.

I don't believe that anybody in this group spoke about
Mr. Olds recent passing with disrespect when various individuals have
made positive comments about him, his career, with posted pictures as
well.

So why today is it necessary for some (retired) Colonel to tell the
adults in this group that some dead General should not be refered to
as Mr.

Are we talking ridiculous here, or just plain stupid.

I'll stand by my bet.

I bet one plugged nickel that Berverly prefers to be called Colonel in
public especially places like the lodge or legion when there's beer
in the belly and war tales on the table.

TO THE GROUP.....

I'm sure that we are all old enough, and mature enough, to figure out
for ourselves what the proper way would be to address this person if
we had ever met him.

Beverly Carmichael > writes:

>I should like to draw your attention to the fact that Robin Olds
> was a Brigadier General in the United States Airforce.

> It is appropriate to refer to him as Brigadier General Olds. Not
> 'Mr' Olds.


> Colonel Beverly Carmichael
> US Airforce (Retired)


Yeah, and "Air Force" is two words. I'd think that someone who'd
served in that service long enough to have retired from it would
know that.



Geoff

--
"They suffer from the same disease as other liberals; they have
run out of other people's money." -- Margaret Thatcher

shiver > wrote in
:

>> David Pride > wrote:
>
>> You, on the other hand, are a petty little twit who cannot possibly
>> conceive of what it is to serve one's country and lead a meaningful
>> life.
>
> Your personal comments about me have nothing to do with the issue at
> hand.
>
> Many of us have met people under social settings where some priggish
> asshole demands the respect due them by insisting that they be refered
> to as Doctor, or Colonel, or even Brigadier General.
>
> Today some (retired) Colonel came into this group to not only tell us
> what was the appropriate salutation for this man, but to make sure we
> all knew that they themselves were a Colonel (retired) in the
> US Air Force.
>
> Who the **** cares.
>
> TO THE GROUP - CORRECT ME ( AS USUAL ) IF I AM WRONG.
>
> I don't believe that anybody in this group spoke about
> Mr. Olds recent passing with disrespect when various individuals have
> made positive comments about him, his career, with posted pictures as
> well.
>
> So why today is it necessary for some (retired) Colonel to tell the
> adults in this group that some dead General should not be refered to
> as Mr.
>
> Are we talking ridiculous here, or just plain stupid.
>
> I'll stand by my bet.
>
> I bet one plugged nickel that Berverly prefers to be called Colonel in
> public especially places like the lodge or legion when there's beer
> in the belly and war tales on the table.
>
> TO THE GROUP.....
>
> I'm sure that we are all old enough, and mature enough, to figure out
> for ourselves what the proper way would be to address this person if
> we had ever met him.

Olds was a Mr. before he was a Brigadier General. I would submit that it
was the qualities and character of the Mr. that so well filled out the
uniform of the Brigadier General - not the title itself. (Did that make
sense?)

I saw no disrespect in the use of "Mr. Olds" here.

Bob ^,,^

Time for a little (somewhat related) humor -

Years ago I worked for a company that had an interdepartment baseball
league. One Spring it came time to round up the usual suspects to form the
teams, so forms were made available for people to sign up to play. Our
Engineering Dept had recently hired a new VP, who was a pretty decent ball
player. So he signed up.

He put down his name, address, telephone number, etc.
And when he came to the line that was supposed to find out whether he wanted
to play first base, shortstop, left field, etc., it said POSITION?

And he wrote - Vice President of Engineering.

He never lived that down, not that he ever knew it of course!

Some people think of themselves primarily in terms of a title, I guess.

Tom

I am in a comenting mood today. This is rare so please indulge me.

Is there no point so small that you guys cannot blow up into a
mountain and have a good 'ol knock down drag out about??
For **** sake it is nothing - let it go! Have a beer and get on with
life. That's what I am doing right now!

Waldo.

Tom Hayden wrote
> Time for a little (somewhat related) humor -
> Some people think of themselves primarily in terms of a title, I
> guess.

Copied from a post that I made to a pilot newsgroup a few years back.

:-) :-)

You guys have touched on one of my pet peeves in aviation. Pilots
not knowing who or what they are. :-)

At the fundamental level, there is the "PILOT" as defined in my
"Webster's" as being "the person who operates an aircraft or
spacecraft" and the "COPILOT" as being "one who assists the pilot
in operating an aircraft". Actually, in the case of more than one
pilot, perhaps they both should be "CO-PILOTS" since the prefix "co"
simply means together.


Then came the FAA (or rather its predessor) who insisted that
somebody (preferably one of the pilots) really be in charge of the
whole operation. Thus the "PILOT-IN-COMMAND" concept came about. If
the pilots were equally qualified, the FAA required that the Air
Carrier designate one of them as PILOT-IN-COMMAND (PIC). This left
"SECOND-IN-COMMAND" for the other pilot.


Note....that to this point, PILOT and CO-PILOT go together and PIC
and SIC share context. The CFR for multi-pilot aircraft use the
terms PIC and SIC.....not Pilot and Co-pilot.


Then aircarriers (probably my old carrier PanAm) started flying large
flying boats into foreign ports and in an attempt to gain the
same level of respect for the flightcrews that the crews of visiting
ships received, the concept of flightcrew officers with rank and
title was born. Following the nautical tradition, the PICs were
given the rank and title of "CAPTAIN", but differing somewhat from
shipboard terminology, instead of "First Mate" for the second ranking
officer, he was given the rank and title of "FIRST OFFICER". The
Flight Engineer became the "FLIGHT ENGINEERING OFFICER" much the same
as a ship's Engineering Officer.


When aircarriers started employing pilots to train and serve as
Flight Engineers, even though they held a Flight Engineer
Certificate, they were in many cases given the rank and title of
"SECOND OFFICER". In addition to these and the "RADIO OFFICER", it
was not uncommon on those early flying boats to have a Fifth or Sixth
Officer.


What purpose did "rank and title" serve? First....rank served to
specify the level of responsibility and authority of ones position
within the flightcrew, and second, the title served as a means of
showing respect when addressing one of the aircraft's officers.
After all...in proper society, we are all entitled :-) to the title
Mr./Mrs./Miss if no other title has been bestowed upon us. One does
not bestow a title upon himself nor use his title when referring to
himself. Being PIC of an aircraft does not automatically confer the
rank and title of "CAPTAIN". At PanAm, all of our copilots held ATPs
and Type Ratings for the aircraft that they flew and in the eyes of
the FAA, they were fully qualified to fly as PICs outside of an
aircarrier environment, but the rank and title of "CAPTAIN" was not
bestowed until they had completed the FAA required Initial Operating
Experience (IOE) for PICs and an Initial Command Check.


So now, we have three sets of words used to describe the two people
up front in an airplane. Pilot/Copilot, PIC/SIC, and Captain/First
Officer. These word pairs should be used in the same context. I am
constantly amused by those who write " I was Captain of flight XXX
and my copilot was....... It seems that once a pilot is told that he
is "A Captain", he will never again refer to himself as mearly a
pilot, but First Officer Smith is still just a copilot.


Rank and titles should not be used as stand-alone nouns but rather as
intended, as a title prefaced before a persons proper name.
At least at PanAm, the Flight Attendants got it right in their pre-
takeoff announcements, "Commanding FltXXX today is Xxx Xxxx",
and then Xxx Xxxxx would blow it with his PA announcement by
starting with "Good morning, this is your captain speaking."
Yes, I know that many of you work, or have worked for companies in
whose manuals the terms "Captain" and "First Officer" are used to
describe positions rather than rank and title. My own company, PanAm
did that too, but I also knew the Director of Flight Operations who
prepared the manual and I fully understood that he was no student of
the English language and whose ego would never again allow himself to
be referred to as a "lowly" pilot. How about all those ads in
aviation magazines that offer "Airline First Officer Training"?
Don't they really mean co-pilot training? Notice that the more
professional of the schools do not use this terminology.


How many of you pilots renew your FAA Medical Certificate with one of
your local doctors? I don't. I get mine from a physician.... more
specifically from an Aviation Medical Examiner (AME). I honor his
education, training, and position in life with the title "Doctor".
Some will say, "Well, what about a ship's "captain"? Actually, a
merchant ship has a "MASTER" with the rank and title of "Captain". A
U.S. Naval ship has a "COMMANDING OFFICER", again with the title of
"Captain" regardless of his actual Naval rank.


Ah well....no one ever said that we had to be proficient in language
skills in order to fly airplanes or write TV shows. :-)


Bob Moore

Bob Moore wrote:
> Tom Hayden wrote
>> Time for a little (somewhat related) humor -
>> Some people think of themselves primarily in terms of a title, I
>> guess.
>
>
>
> Ah well....no one ever said that we had to be proficient in language
> skills in order to fly airplanes or write TV shows. :-)
>
>
> Bob Moore

Without doubt Robin Olds was a pilot and hero of that "Greatest
Generation". He had the skill and tenacity to bring all his experience
to several generations of combat fliers so they could succeed. He was a
leader of men. Unfortunately he had to fight pompous military
bureaucrats flying desks all of his career after WWII.
Robin Olds would understand the respect paid him by those addressing him
as General, however a man of his modesty would prefer to be remembered
as an old P-38 jockey.

Savageduck

Savageduck wrote:
> Bob Moore wrote:
>> Tom Hayden wrote
>>> Time for a little (somewhat related) humor -
>>> Some people think of themselves primarily in terms of a title, I
>>> guess.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ah well....no one ever said that we had to be proficient in language
>> skills in order to fly airplanes or write TV shows. :-)
>>
>> Bob Moore
>
> Without doubt Robin Olds was a pilot and hero of that "Greatest
> Generation". He had the skill and tenacity to bring all his experience
> to several generations of combat fliers so they could succeed. He was a
> leader of men. Unfortunately he had to fight pompous military
> bureaucrats flying desks all of his career after WWII.
> Robin Olds would understand the respect paid him by those addressing him
> as General, however a man of his modesty would prefer to be remembered
> as an old P-38 jockey.
>
> Savageduck


Also just to clarify Robin Olds' history, he graduated from West Point
(where he was an All-American tackle) and earned his USAAF wings on June
1, 1943. He was assigned to 479th Fighter Group in February 1944 and
shipped out to England in May 1944. Capt. Olds became one of the Eighth
AF's few P-38 aces by shooting down two Fw190's on August 14, 1944 and
three Bf109's on the August 24, 1944. Later in 1944 the 479th converted
to P-51s and he shot down eight more enemy fighters giving him a WWII
aerial combat score of 13. He has 11 documented ground kills (but real
fighters never claim them, only the statisticians). He flew 107 WWII
combat missions and as a 22 year old major commanded the 434th FS.
His WWII awards include two Silver Stars, two DFCs, 28 Air Medals, The
British DFC and the Croix de Guerre.

Twenty two years later Colonel Olds commanded the 8th Tactical Fighter
Wing in the Vietnam War. Flying F-4 Phantoms he added four MIG kills to
his score at the age of 44.

For his service in South East Asia he earned The Air Force Cross, two
Distinguished Service Medals, two more Silver Stars, three more DFCs and
twelve more OLCs to his Air Medals. He retired from the USAF as a
brigadier general in 1973.
A pilot's pilot, an example of leadership and a modest gentleman.

Savageduck

"shiver" > wrote in message
...
>> Beverly Carmichael > wrote:
>
>> It is appropriate to refer to him as Brigadier General Olds. Not 'Mr'
>> Olds.
>
> Well Bev.... We have all met people like that.
>
> Pompous people who even when retired insist that every one from
> children to their parents address them by their title.

Oh, please. You'd have to climb up on your mother's shoulders just to kiss
Gen. Olds' ass.