Pribina Cup 2016 - Slovakia - Mid-Air?

[Renny[_2_]]

Amazingly on the local news in Albuquerque, NM there was a report on a glider mid-air in Slovakia on April 2 at the Pribina Cup. On the contest website there was a mention of an "incident" and that all tasks were cancelled yesterday. It also said that all pilots were OK....which is really great news!

Now, the TV report indicated that at least one pilot bailed out successfully and showed a glider that crashed on top of a house....A web search revealed very little info, so does anyone "out there" have any information on this "incident?"

Thx - Renny

[Wojciech Scigala]

Renny pisze:

> A web search revealed very little info, so does anyone "out there" have any information on this "incident?"
Mid-air, one glider landed back on the airfield, second one - you know
the story. Not much more to be told even by people who were there.

It's typical for "publicity" of competition accidents to be zero.
Organizers' reasons are obvious, but on the other hand pretending
"nothing happened" doesn't make gliding community look serious.

Wojciech

[Renny[_2_]]

On Monday, April 4, 2016 at 5:46:12 AM UTC-6, Wojciech Scigala wrote:
> Renny pisze:
>
> > A web search revealed very little info, so does anyone "out there" have any information on this "incident?"
> Mid-air, one glider landed back on the airfield, second one - you know
> the story. Not much more to be told even by people who were there.
>
> It's typical for "publicity" of competition accidents to be zero.
> Organizers' reasons are obvious, but on the other hand pretending
> "nothing happened" doesn't make gliding community look serious.
>
> Wojciech

Wojciech,
Thank you for the information. Hopefully, we will learn more in time. I did receive this URL with some photos:

http://nasanitra.sme.sk/c/20129950/lietadlo-narazilo-do-strechy-domu-na-zobore.html?ref=trz

Thanks again - Renny

[Frank Whiteley]

On Monday, April 4, 2016 at 7:52:41 AM UTC-6, Renny wrote:
> On Monday, April 4, 2016 at 5:46:12 AM UTC-6, Wojciech Scigala wrote:
> > Renny pisze:
> >
> > > A web search revealed very little info, so does anyone "out there" have any information on this "incident?"
> > Mid-air, one glider landed back on the airfield, second one - you know
> > the story. Not much more to be told even by people who were there.
> >
> > It's typical for "publicity" of competition accidents to be zero.
> > Organizers' reasons are obvious, but on the other hand pretending
> > "nothing happened" doesn't make gliding community look serious.
> >
> > Wojciech
>
> Wojciech,
> Thank you for the information. Hopefully, we will learn more in time. I did receive this URL with some photos:
>
> http://nasanitra.sme.sk/c/20129950/lietadlo-narazilo-do-strechy-domu-na-zobore.html?ref=trz
>
> Thanks again - Renny

Another link, in English that helps with the Google translate of the above link. Less pictures.
http://spectator.sme.sk/c/20130833/two-gliders-collide-one-crashes-into-roof-of-house.html

Frank Whiteley

[krasw]

On Monday, 4 April 2016 14:46:12 UTC+3, Wojciech Scigala wrote:
> It's typical for "publicity" of competition accidents to be zero.
> Organizers' reasons are obvious, but on the other hand pretending
> "nothing happened" doesn't make gliding community look serious.
>
> Wojciech

Maybe it would be a good time to look at the mirror. Why is it that pilots from certain Eastern European countries find themselves in these midairs so often? It's out of any proportions, internationally. Competition culture is just plain dangerous. This is constantly proven by stream of accident reports, most remarkable example was Jantar Cup 2014 at Pila (two collisions, three parachute saves and one fatality).

[Wojciech Scigala]

krasw pisze:

> It's out of any proportions, internationally.

Maybe the reason is the volume of competitions there? More flights =
more accidents. Mid-airs happen all over the world, without any hard
numbers comparing number of flights with number of collisions it's
impossible to judge if the reason is really behind "geopolitics". What's
more, low numbers of accidents assures high noise level. To make it even
worse, practice of sweeping accidents under the PR carpet leaves those
numbers only to official boards, so all we have are speculations and gut
feelings.

It would be great if one can give the main reason for mid-airs. Be it
lack of lookout, cockpit design, too much or too less electronics,
nationality, hours flown, sex, competition rules, etc... The issue is
complex and any simple diagnosis won't help anyone. If one says that
pilots from particular group are dangerous, those accused will just deny
that (even if proven by dry facts, it will be mentally rejected and take
long to be absorbed) - others will think "problem found, does not apply
to me". No easy solutions here.

Yes, this might be true that some countries share same deep-dug reasons,
be it law, weather, glider types or more vague ones like history,
culture, mentality etc. Finding them out (not guessing) will be great
starting point for discussion and hopefully improvements.

Right now we're only guessing. And even if guess is right, it won't help
unless we have some identified area to work with.


Regards,
Wojciech

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Wonder if the aircraft were Flarm equipped ?

[krasw]

These accidents usually happen at pre start gaggles with dozens of gliders in same thermals. Flarm is useless there. Only thing that help is disciple and safety-oriented attitude, which these kamikaze pilots lack.

[Surge]

On Thursday, 7 April 2016 17:04:39 UTC+2, Wojciech Scigala wrote:
> It would be great if one can give the main reason for mid-airs. Be it
> lack of lookout, cockpit design, too much or too less electronics,
> nationality, hours flown, sex, competition rules, etc...

Sex in the cockpit or the lack of sex? :)
Would gender actually be a contributing factor?

[Justin Craig[_3_]]

Do you fly comps?

At 17:58 07 April 2016, krasw wrote:
>These accidents usually happen at pre start gaggles with dozens of
gliders
>in same thermals. Flarm is useless there. Only thing that help is
disciple
>and safety-oriented attitude, which these kamikaze pilots lack.
>

[Tango Whisky]

Le jeudi 7 avril 2016 19:58:30 UTC+2, krasw a écrit*:
> These accidents usually happen at pre start gaggles with dozens of gliders in same thermals. Flarm is useless there.

I have been with dozens of flarm-equipped gliders in pre-start gaggles. Flarm was very helpful in these situations, almost no false alarms.

[krasw]

perjantai 8. huhtikuuta 2016 11.00.08 UTC+3 Justin Craig kirjoitti:
> Do you fly comps?
>
> At 17:58 07 April 2016, krasw wrote:
> >These accidents usually happen at pre start gaggles with dozens of
> gliders
> >in same thermals. Flarm is useless there. Only thing that help is
> disciple
> >and safety-oriented attitude, which these kamikaze pilots lack.
> >

Of course I do.

Since statistics were called for, I extracted all accidents involving mid-air during competitions during last 5 seasons (data from Aviation Safety Network). Here are the results:

Eastern Europe: Poland (3), Slovakia (2), Czech (1): 6 accidents
USA: 3 accidents (incl. 1 in Uvalde worlds)
UK: 1 accident
Finland 1 accident

I maintain that this is not proportional to glider pilot population worldwide.

[[email protected]]

W dniu piątek, 8 kwietnia 2016 10:11:01 UTC+2 użytkownik krasw napisał:
> perjantai 8. huhtikuuta 2016 11.00.08 UTC+3 Justin Craig kirjoitti:
> > Do you fly comps?
> >
> > At 17:58 07 April 2016, krasw wrote:
> > >These accidents usually happen at pre start gaggles with dozens of
> > gliders
> > >in same thermals. Flarm is useless there. Only thing that help is
> > disciple
> > >and safety-oriented attitude, which these kamikaze pilots lack.
> > >
>
> Of course I do.
>
> Since statistics were called for, I extracted all accidents involving mid-air during competitions during last 5 seasons (data from Aviation Safety Network). Here are the results:
>
> Eastern Europe: Poland (3), Slovakia (2), Czech (1): 6 accidents
> USA: 3 accidents (incl. 1 in Uvalde worlds)
> UK: 1 accident
> Finland 1 accident
>
> I maintain that this is not proportional to glider pilot population worldwide.

Oficial competition info from FAI:

Europe
44th Trofeo CittÃ* di Torino - Campionato Italiano 20m biposto 2016 Torino (Italy) 01 Apr to 10 Apr 2016
2016 FAI Qualifying Sailplane GP La Cerdanya (Spain) 17 Apr to 24 Apr 2016
2016 KLIX - international gliding cup Klix (Germany) 28 Apr to 06 May 2016
2016 Jeseniky Spring Cup Sumperk (Czech Rep.) 29 Apr to 07 May 2016
2016 Eskilstuna International Open Eskilstuna FK (Sweden) 30 Apr to 07 May 2016
2016 FAI Qualifying Sailplane GP Usman (Russia) 01 May to 08 May 2016
2016 FAI Qualifying Sailplane GP Varese (Italy) 14 May to 21 May 2016
2016 Kiewitcup Hasselt (Belgium) 14 May to 16 May 2016
2016 Czech Gliding Championship Moravská Třebová (Czech Rep.) 22 May to 04 Jun 2016
2016 Campionato Italiano Classe Unica Ferrara (Italy) 02 Jun 2016
2016 FAI Qualifying Sailplane GP Rennes - Saint Sulpice (France) 04 Jun to 11 Jun 2016
2016 Fly Pink Cup Ferrara (Italy) 05 Jun 2016
2016 FAI Qualifying Sailplane GP Niederöblarn (Austria) 18 Jun to 25 Jun 2016
2016 Swiss Open National Gliding Championship Schänis (Switzerland) 02 Jul to 09 Jul 2016
2016 Safari Cup Dvur Kralove n/L (Czech Rep.) 03 Jul to 15 Jul 2016
2016 T Cup Touzim (Czech Rep.) 09 Jul to 17 Jul 2016
2016 FAI Qualifying Sailplane GP Bicester (United Kingdom) 09 Jul to 17 Jul 2016
2016 Czech Regional Championship Zbraslavice (Czech Rep.) 10 Jul to 22 Jul 2016
34th FAI World Gliding Championships Pociunai, Kaunas (Lithuania) 30 Jul to 13 Aug 2016
2016 LashamGlide Lasham (United Kingdom) 30 Jul to 07 Aug 2016
2016 Coppa Internazionale del Mediterraneo Rieti (Italy) 01 Aug to 12 Aug 2016
2016 FAI Qualifying Sailplane GP Musbach (Germany) 06 Aug to 13 Aug 2016
2016 Coppa cittÃÃâ€*’ di Rieti Rieti (Italy) 14 Aug to 20 Aug 2016

Africa:
7th FAI World Sailplane Grand Prix Championship Potchefstroom (South Africa) 05 Nov to 12 Nov 2016

USA:
2016 FAI Qualifying Sailplane GP Ionia (USA) 24 Jul to 31 Jul 2016

I maintain that USA competitions is not proportional to glider competitions worldwide, especialy in Central (not East) Europe

[Ramy[_2_]]

I would still be very interested to know if both aircrafts involved were using flarm, if it was in stealth mode, and if it happened in a big gaggle or not.
Also how you configure your display can significantly impact how usable the device is. If the volume is low it is rather useless unless you scan your instruments every few seconds.

Ramy

[krasw]

Flarm does not prevent these accidents. Most if not all gliders in European contests have flarms, it is often mandatory. I witnessed one of those fatal midairs (all had flarms, gaggle was gliding under cloudstreet). They still happen.

[Muttley]

On Friday, April 8, 2016 at 6:56:18 PM UTC+1, krasw wrote:
> Flarm does not prevent these accidents. Most if not all gliders in European contests have flarms, it is often mandatory. I witnessed one of those fatal midairs (all had flarms, gaggle was gliding under cloudstreet). They still happen.

could also be lack of training as it is one of the first competitions and so early in the season after the winter break