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-   -   Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=9683)

ArtKramr July 11th 04 01:39 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Ian MacLure
Date: 7/10/2004 10:55 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
link.net:

"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one

problem.


The record indicates you're wrong. Again.


Well I think its safe to say that the only record those bozos are
interested in is broken and just keeps repeating the same old
off-key passage again and again and again.

IBM



Kerry went to war. Bush didn't. Nothing off key about that.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Brett July 11th 04 01:51 PM

"ArtKramr" wrote:
Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Ian MacLure
Date: 7/10/2004 10:55 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
link.net:

"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one
problem.


The record indicates you're wrong. Again.


Well I think its safe to say that the only record those bozos are
interested in is broken and just keeps repeating the same old
off-key passage again and again and again.

IBM



Kerry went to war.


And followed that up with testimony before congress that during that war HE
committed war crimes.




WalterM140 July 11th 04 02:01 PM

Basic training became a requirement about 1967. By then most states also put
their people through some kind of OCS program.


Bush did not complete any sort of officer qulification program.

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc14.gif

Walt

WalterM140 July 11th 04 02:03 PM

But it was not manditory, a
sharp troop with a good record and test taking capability had a good chance.


Bush scored in the lowest percentile allowed to qualify for pilot training. He
did not complete any sort of officer qualification course.

Walt

WalterM140 July 11th 04 02:04 PM

Note also that your notion of what OCS involved isn't even close.

I garduated from Marine Corps OCS in 1981.

Walt

WalterM140 July 11th 04 02:05 PM

Yes, he earned some of his decorations. Nobody disputes that.

Yes indeed, some. But not all.


Details?

Walt

WalterM140 July 11th 04 02:26 PM

Kerry went to war. Bush didn't


Orwell rules here, Art. The hero is attacked and the shirker applauded.


Walt

WalterM140 July 11th 04 02:32 PM

Bush skipped the last two years of his commitment.

Prove it! Otherwise belt up.


This document shows that Bush had no service between 26 May, '72 and 1 Oct, 73.

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc10.gif

This document shows Bush assigned to a unit in Denver from 2 Oct, '73 to 21
November 73, while he actually was in graduate school.

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc14.gif

Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment.


More he

http://www.democrats.com/display.cfm?id=157

Walt


WalterM140 July 11th 04 02:36 PM


A lie. www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm


You're not going to gainsay this document:

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc10.gif

Bush clearly had so service from 26 May, '72 to 1 Oct, '73.

After 1 Oct, '73, Bush, per his own military resume, was stationed at a unit in
Denver while he was in graduate school on the east coast. Can you show that he
ever appeared in Denver?

Bush had no service between 26 May, 72 and his discharge on 21 Nov 74.

Walt

WalterM140 July 11th 04 02:37 PM

Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one
problem.

It's not a problem. It's a lie, one which you have been spitting into
the wind for the past several months.

www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm


Bush had no service between 26 May 72 and 21 Nov 74.

Walt

Smartace11 July 11th 04 02:44 PM

This document shows that Bush had no service between 26 May, '72 and 1 Oct,
73.


So what. A lot of people did that. Some even got paid by the AF to do that,
wore civilian clothes, and did not attend drills or formation. Still do today.

Steven P. McNicoll July 11th 04 04:02 PM


"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

Didn't the 102 have the downward firing ejection seat that
made low-level ejections, er, problematic?


No, it did not. I believe you're thinking of the early F-104.



Steven P. McNicoll July 11th 04 04:03 PM


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

Kerry went to war. Bush didn't


Who did you support for president in 1992? 1996?



Steven P. McNicoll July 11th 04 04:03 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

This document shows that Bush had no service between 26 May, '72 and 1

Oct, 73.

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc10.gif

This document shows Bush assigned to a unit in Denver from 2 Oct, '73 to

21
November 73, while he actually was in graduate school.

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc14.gif

Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment.


More he

http://www.democrats.com/display.cfm?id=157


Your documentation is incomplete.



Steven P. McNicoll July 11th 04 04:03 PM


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

Kerry went to war. Bush didn't. Nothing off key about that.


Who did you support for president in 1992? 1996?



Steven P. McNicoll July 11th 04 04:03 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Bush had no service between 26 May 72 and 21 Nov 74.


Prove it.



D. Strang July 11th 04 04:05 PM

"WalterM140" wrote
A couple years ago, Art became a tired and tiresome old man. Too bad!


Art's ability to see that Bush is a complete disaster is a credit to him.


Art should bow to Texas, as the President has signed every welfare bill
put before him.



D. Strang July 11th 04 04:20 PM

"ArtKramr" wrote

Kerry went to war. Bush didn't


I guess that would earn him a free cup of coffee, but then he told
Congress that he was a war criminal, so maybe we should hold back
on that coffee for a bit.

Ask yourself this question: how would you feel if your crew got to
go home after 3 months overseas, and you had to stay for duration
plus six months? Would you say "they went to war" as excited as
you are about JFKerry?



Steve Mellenthin July 11th 04 04:38 PM

Ask yourself this question: how would you feel if your crew got to
go home after 3 months overseas, and you had to stay for duration
plus six months? Would you say "they went to war" as excited as
you are about JFKerry?


Always wondered about that early departure. Can anyone explain?

WalterM140 July 11th 04 04:50 PM

Ask yourself this question: how would you feel if your crew got to
go home after 3 months overseas, and you had to stay for duration
plus six months? Would you say "they went to war" as excited as
you are about JFKerry?


Always wondered about that early departure. Can anyone explain?


Anyone wounded three times could opt out.

It occurs to me that this is what the protagonist in "Platoon" does also.

Walt

Ed Rasimus July 11th 04 05:09 PM

On 11 Jul 2004 04:31:51 GMT, (Bill Shatzer)
wrote:

Ed Rasimus ) writes:

-snip-

Sorry, Bill, but that simply isn't so. While "early outs" were
becoming available for a few specialties as early as '71,


Well, certainly much earlier than that. Heck -I- got an "early out"
in the summer of '67 which cut almost three full months of my
enlistment.


My first tour was '66 and it was mission count, not DEROS. Since 60%
of the folks starting the mission count tour didn't complete it, no
one was too worried about a fixed date DEROS. Support personnel,
however, were on a "controlled tour" which meant one year from the
date of departure from CONUS. Your three month early out would have to
be taken in the context of where you were stationed, your MOS/AFSC,
and your existing time in service.

the policy
didn't apply to overseas tours which were strictly controlled.


I seem to recall a couple members of my unit who received "early
outs" which not only cut their enlistment terms but also were
granted in advance of their scheduled DROS cutting a month or
so off their scheduled RVN tours. But, it was a long time ago,
perhaps I misremember.


Perhaps.

And, you really might want to look up the duration of Mr. Gore's
overseas assignment.


Everything I've seen sez it was early January, '71 through late
May, '71 with a scheduled discharge date of August 5, '71.

You have information to the contrary?


Here's a quote: "When they finally came, he would spend less than
five months in Vietnam, arriving on Jan. 8, 1971, to write newspaper
and magazine articles. He was discharged on May 24, 1971." (The
Washington Times National Weekly Edition Nov. 28 - Dec. 4, 1994)

I said Gore spent 151 days of a year tour. You replied that he only
got a two-month curtailment. The difference would be 151 days
(Jan-May???) versus 10 months x 30 days or 300 days. I think the
Washington Times dates, my statement, and your "Everything I've seen
sez" all indicate that your asssertion of a two month curtailment was
incorrect. So, we have information to the contrary.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

WalterM140 July 11th 04 05:13 PM

It's just neocon bitterness from a president and vice president who ever went
to war when they damn well should have.


You couldn't kick too hard with Bush going into the Air Guard -- those Century
series fighters -could- easily kill you (so I hear).

But Bush skated out on the last two years of his six year commitment, but then
has the gall to attack Senator Kerry's service. That needs to be confronted.

Bush skipped the last two years of his commitment. He didn't even go through an
officer candidate course.

When I say that Bush attacked Kerry's record, I mean of course that the Bush
campaign attacked Kerry. Bush probably has a little to do with this as he does
with carrying out his presidential functions, which seem to be to act just as a
figurhead.

Walt

WalterM140 July 11th 04 05:14 PM


Whence he graduated in circa 1970.
And the draft ended when exactly? Hmmm?


Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The draft ended in
1972.

Walt

D. Strang July 11th 04 05:17 PM

"Steve Mellenthin" wrote
Ask yourself this question: how would you feel if your crew got to
go home after 3 months overseas, and you had to stay for duration
plus six months? Would you say "they went to war" as excited as
you are about JFKerry?


Always wondered about that early departure. Can anyone explain?


I think the story is, that he found out that you could request assignment
out of a war zone upon the award of three purple hearts. He then
went to sick call every time he got a scratch.



WalterM140 July 11th 04 05:26 PM

The "six week basic air man's (sic) course" is OTS.

Bush's military resume says he was enlisted prior to 3 September 1968.

This is the link:

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc14.gif

I went to Officer Candidate School at Quantico. I was never (for that purpose)
considered as an enlisted man.

Now there -are- some differences between the Army/Air Force and Marines/Navy
terminology and methodology.

You might also use the correct terminology while spouting
your propaganda. The commissioning course is Officer Training School,
not Officer Training School which was the term during WW II for Army
"90 day wonders".


Oh, it wasn't Officer Training School, it was Officer Training School?


Again, officer candidates in the Marines/Navy are -not- considered to be
enlisted members.

Are you categoricially saying that ANG, Air Force or whatever -- that those
officer candidates -are- enlisted men?

James Webb has also said that Bush did not attend an officer candidate course.
I'll stick with that.

Walt

Steve Mellenthin July 11th 04 05:35 PM

Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The draft ended
in
1972.


1973

ArtKramr July 11th 04 05:58 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Ian MacLure
Date: 7/10/2004 11:32 PM Pa



We won the 2000 election.
We are going to win the 2004 election.
So who's bitter?

IBM


Bush was not elected. He was appointed. We'll fix that in November.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


ArtKramr July 11th 04 06:04 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/11/2004 6:03 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

But it was not manditory, a
sharp troop with a good record and test taking capability had a good chance.


Bush scored in the lowest percentile allowed to qualify for pilot training.
He
did not complete any sort of officer qualification course.

Walt


And he was a "C: student through school. Not exactly the most coloful crayon in
the box.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


BUFDRVR July 11th 04 06:08 PM

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

Who did you support for president in 1992? 1996?


There's no way Kramer can answer that question without looking
foolish....again.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

ArtKramr July 11th 04 06:24 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/11/2004 6:26 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Kerry went to war. Bush didn't


Orwell rules here, Art. The hero is attacked and the shirker applauded.


Walt


Yup. It's the neocon way


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


ArtKramr July 11th 04 06:28 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: "D. Strang"
Date: 7/11/2004 9:17 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: [email protected]

"Steve Mellenthin" wrote
Ask yourself this question: how would you feel if your crew got to
go home after 3 months overseas, and you had to stay for duration
plus six months? Would you say "they went to war" as excited as
you are about JFKerry?


Always wondered about that early departure. Can anyone explain?


I think the story is, that he found out that you could request assignment
out of a war zone upon the award of three purple hearts. He then
went to sick call every time he got a scratch.



If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would do
the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Steve Mellenthin July 11th 04 06:31 PM

If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would do
the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.


We apparently had a lot of brainless people in Vietnam then. Ditto in WWII?

D. Strang July 11th 04 06:36 PM

"WalterM140" wrote

Always wondered about that early departure. Can anyone explain?


Anyone wounded three times could opt out.

It occurs to me that this is what the protagonist in "Platoon" does also.


Platoon is good fiction, based sort of on incidents of real life, but highly
dramatic for effect. In the script he's always called "Chris" while everyone
else has their last name or a nickname. It's common in the military to only
use a persons last name. Mail call, etc, it's just easier that way. But the
script emphasises "Chris" to signify that he is not really one of them. He's
just there for the tour, and then will get on with his life. Everyone else in
the story calls him "Taylor" but in the script he is "Chris." He opts out of
the war on his second wound, and he will accept it, because he knows he
can't take it. The war is beneath him. In the last scene he looks at "Rhah"
who, like a true Centurion, is victorious again with his walking stick and
fist, ready for the next battle, and "Chris" knows he made the right choice
to leave. He can never become a warrior, only a survivor. He murdered
the warrior who had kept him alive.

His final words a "those of us who did make it have an obligation to build
again, to teach to others what we know and to try with what's left of our
lives to find a goodness and meaning to this life"

It's the words of a murderer, who failed to become a warrior, and left the
battle. What does he have to teach? What goodness and meaning are to
be found? "Chris" becomes the spokesman for the warrior, yet he is not a
warrior, and the people he returns to do not know this. Thus the power of
this ending actually brings me to tear, it is well written. The true warriors are
just completely forgotten in life, like ants, as in this story.



WalterM140 July 11th 04 06:38 PM

I think the story is, that he found out that you could request assignment
out of a war zone upon the award of three purple hearts. He then
went to sick call every time he got a scratch.


One of Senator Kerry's wounds is described in his Bronze Star citation:

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/Bronze_Star.pdf

Walt

ArtKramr July 11th 04 06:43 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: ojunk (Steve Mellenthin)
Date: 7/11/2004 10:31 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would

do
the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.


We apparently had a lot of brainless people in Vietnam then. Ditto in WWII?


The more missions you fly, the more times you get wounded the slimmer the
chances of survival are. But you know that, don't you?



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


D. Strang July 11th 04 06:56 PM

"ArtKramr" wrote

If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would do
the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.


But then you would miss your "adventure" you bragged about before joining.

The people who wouldn't do that are Generals now. Rank way above politicians.



D. Strang July 11th 04 07:01 PM

"ArtKramr" wrote

And he was a "C: student through school. Not exactly the most coloful crayon in
the box.


I don't know what your grades were, but neither of us have never been Governor,
or President, so I guess the grades don't mean much in real life, do they?



Steven P. McNicoll July 11th 04 07:25 PM


"Steve Mellenthin" wrote in message
...

Always wondered about that early departure. Can anyone explain?


Three Purple Hearts got one an early out from Vietnam. It appears Kerry's
first one was not earned.



WalterM140 July 11th 04 07:28 PM

He opts out of
the war on his second wound,


As I recall, Chris was wounded three times, and so was the one black soldier
who stabbed himself in the thigh after the big attack.

Walt

WalterM140 July 11th 04 07:46 PM

Three Purple Hearts got one an early out from Vietnam. It appears Kerry's
first one was not earned.


Here's the link:

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/Purpl...1_Citation.pdf

Walt


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