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-   -   Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=9683)

WalterM140 July 11th 04 07:59 PM

If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would do
the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.


What did you get a Silver Star for, Art?




Walt

D. Strang July 11th 04 08:05 PM

"WalterM140" wrote
He opts out of
the war on his second wound,


As I recall, Chris was wounded three times, and so was the one black soldier
who stabbed himself in the thigh after the big attack.


It's a minor distinction, you could be right, the point is more about opting out,
rather than the number of wounds. I believe the black soldier was more interested
in getting a blow job from the white nurses than anything else in life.



B2431 July 11th 04 08:09 PM

From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/11/2004 8:04 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Note also that your notion of what OCS involved isn't even close.


I garduated from Marine Corps OCS in 1981.

Walt


They didn't teach you to spell? Did they teach you the difference between the
branch's missions? If memory serves USMC OCS includes infantry training. Are
you suggestion Bush should have had that training too? How about the Navy
commissioning programs, should they have infantry training too?

Do you think doctors and clergy need the same level of training before being
commisioned?

We had a Rabbi here at Eglin that was wearing his uniform and ministering to us
before he did his 2 week orientation because of Passover. Are you goung to tell
us he "avoided OCS?"

Don't let your neo-left bitterness blind you so much.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

ArtKramr July 11th 04 08:10 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/11/2004 11:59 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would

do
the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.


What did you get a Silver Star for, Art?




Walt


I said "IF".



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


B2431 July 11th 04 08:14 PM

rom: (ArtKramr)

And he was a "C: student through school. Not exactly the most coloful crayon
in
the box.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS



Art, I was a C student in school for exactly the same reason: I am dyslexic. I
don't know what Bush's IQ is, but mine is 142. Are you going to tell me I'm
stupid?

Don't let your neo-left bitterness get in the way.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Steven P. McNicoll July 11th 04 08:24 PM


"Ian MacLure" wrote in message
...

Seems I had the development history confabulated with the
operational versions. Couldn't find the reference that talked
the development issues which (IIRC) included area ruling to
deal with unexpectedly high drag


The YF-102 did not incorporate the area rule. The YF-102A and later
versions did.



B2431 July 11th 04 08:24 PM

From: (ArtKramr)




Kerry went to war. Bush didn't. Nothing off key about that.


Arthur Kramer


Neither did Carter, Reagan or Clinton. Howeve Carter and Reagan DID serve in
the military without going into combat.

If going into actual combat is all that makes a man respectable then it's safe
to assume you don't respect your ground crew and all the men who put you in a
servicable airplane. Someone had to be cooks, clerical staff, truck
drivers..etc.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

B2431 July 11th 04 08:32 PM

From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 7/11/2004 12:24 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From:
(WalterM140)
Date: 7/11/2004 6:26 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Kerry went to war. Bush didn't


Orwell rules here, Art. The hero is attacked and the shirker applauded.


Walt


Yup. It's the neocon way


Arthur Kramer


You neo-lefties are amazing. Are you suggesting no one who didn't see combat is
qualified for the presidency? That would mean Hoover, FDR, Carter, Reagan and
Clinton as well as several others were not qualified.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Steve Mellenthin July 11th 04 08:33 PM

If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would
do
the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.


We apparently had a lot of brainless people in Vietnam then. Ditto in WWII?


The more missions you fly, the more times you get wounded the slimmer the
chances of survival are. But you know that, don't you?



Arthur Kramer


Guess it is all a matter of how committed you are and how important you think
the job is you have been assigned to do

In the military we call it service above self.
I get the feeling somehow that our friend JFkerry wasn't as committed to
service as he was to self. Sorta seems as if he couldn't wait to get back to
the States to campaign and help out his little friend Janie.

Ian MacLure July 11th 04 08:45 PM

(WalterM140) wrote in
:


Whence he graduated in circa 1970.
And the draft ended when exactly? Hmmm?


Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The draft
ended in 1972.


So explain how he graduated from a 4 yr college in 1974.
Did he have a time machine?

IBM

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Ian MacLure July 11th 04 08:51 PM

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

Note also that your notion of what OCS involved isn't even close.


I garduated from Marine Corps OCS in 1981.



Pity you didn't pay attention to spelling in public school.

Anyhoo, last time I looked the Marine Corps was the property
of the Navy.
And as I'm sure you've been told at least once in your sorry
existence:

There's
A right way.
A wrong way
And-uh, an [Army/Navy/Air Force/Marine Corps/Coast Guard]
way.
Ed Rasimus is in a position to comment authoritatively on
how the USAF did things and gosh darn it during the period
in question to boot. Ed would know. You, on the other hand
would not. As if that were not already abundantly clear.

IBM

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BUFDRVR July 11th 04 08:54 PM

Dan wrote:

If going into actual combat is all that makes a man respectable then it's
safe
to assume you don't respect your ground crew and all the men who put you in a
servicable airplane. Someone had to be cooks, clerical staff, truck
drivers..etc.


Have not read Art's stuff before? He doesn't respect the service of the above
mentioned personnel.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

D. Strang July 11th 04 08:58 PM

"Steve Mellenthin" wrote

I get the feeling somehow that our friend JFkerry wasn't as committed to
service as he was to self. Sorta seems as if he couldn't wait to get back to
the States to campaign and help out his little friend Janie.


It's telling that a soldier like Senator Dole quit the senate to run for President,
and JFKerry who is keeping a backup plan. His attendance record is really
hurting his state, but it is another form of self-service.



D. Strang July 11th 04 09:02 PM

"Ian MacLure" wrote
(WalterM140) wrote
Whence he graduated in circa 1970.
And the draft ended when exactly? Hmmm?


Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The draft
ended in 1972.


So explain how he graduated from a 4 yr college in 1974.
Did he have a time machine?


Summer School? CLEP?



B2431 July 11th 04 09:08 PM

From: Cub Driver

snip

The laugh line among junior officers in Vietnam in 1964 was: "It's a
lousy war, but it's the only war we've got!"


That line has also been used in movies. I am willing to bet it probably goes
back to the invention of the rock. I wonder when the "shell fragment removed
from eye" gag first came out.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

B2431 July 11th 04 09:20 PM

From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/11/2004 11:14 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:


Whence he graduated in circa 1970.
And the draft ended when exactly? Hmmm?


Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The draft ended
in
1972.

Walt


It ended in 1973.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Bill Shatzer July 12th 04 12:34 AM

Ed Rasimus ) writes:

-snip-

And, you really might want to look up the duration of Mr. Gore's
overseas assignment.


Everything I've seen sez it was early January, '71 through late
May, '71 with a scheduled discharge date of August 5, '71.


You have information to the contrary?


Here's a quote: "When they finally came, he would spend less than
five months in Vietnam, arriving on Jan. 8, 1971, to write newspaper
and magazine articles. He was discharged on May 24, 1971." (The
Washington Times National Weekly Edition Nov. 28 - Dec. 4, 1994)


I said Gore spent 151 days of a year tour. You replied that he only
got a two-month curtailment. The difference would be 151 days
(Jan-May???) versus 10 months x 30 days or 300 days. I think the
Washington Times dates, my statement, and your "Everything I've seen
sez" all indicate that your asssertion of a two month curtailment was
incorrect. So, we have information to the contrary.


I'm really trying to understand your point, Ed, and I'm apparently
missing it completely. Gore had, at most, a seven month tour.

Gove's enlistment was up on August 5, 1971. As I don't think they
were doing "stop-loses" in that era and certainly not for folks
with journalist MOSs, Gove was NOT going to be in VN after
early August in any event.

If he was discharged May 24, he served in VN two months and 12
days less than the maximum he might have served there.

As to why he didn't arrive in VN until January 8, that would seem
a differnet question but one which seems largely irrelevant.

There seems little dispute that he in fact -did- volunteer
for assignment to VN. It was certainly not unknown for the
Army bureaucracy to take its own sweet time between the receipt
of a re-assignment request and the time the orders were actually
cut.

Cheers,

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

Bill Shatzer July 12th 04 12:48 AM

Ian MacLure ) writes:
(WalterM140) wrote in
:


Whence he graduated in circa 1970.
And the draft ended when exactly? Hmmm?


Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The draft
ended in 1972.


So explain how he graduated from a 4 yr college in 1974.
Did he have a time machine?


Not a trick - I entered Oregon State in the summer of '67 and
graduated in May '70.

Attend summer school and take one extra class a term and you've
more than enough credits to graduate in 3 years - or even less.

Not saying Edwards did that, but it was certainly possible.

Cheers,

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

B2431 July 12th 04 12:51 AM

From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/11/2004 10:50 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Ask yourself this question: how would you feel if your crew got to
go home after 3 months overseas, and you had to stay for duration
plus six months? Would you say "they went to war" as excited as
you are about JFKerry?


Always wondered about that early departure. Can anyone explain?


Anyone wounded three times could opt out.

It occurs to me that this is what the protagonist in "Platoon" does also.

Walt


Mein Gott, herr Goebels, we can cite fictional movies to bolster our argument!

This puts you in the same category as teuton and denyav.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Steven P. McNicoll July 12th 04 02:01 AM


"Bill Shatzer" wrote in message
...

I had thought that was exactly the problem with the F-102;
that it was NOT area ruled.


The YF-102 was not area ruled, the YF-102A and later models were.



My quick and dirty reference (the one which most readily
falls to hand) indicates that the F-102 had a max speed
of 825 mph with a J57-P engine,

The F-106 is listed with a max speed of 1,530 mph with the
the same J57-P engine.

Something has to be going on there with the aerodynamics to
account for an 85% increase in speed with essentially the
same engine producing essentially the same thrust.


They didn't use the same engine, the F-106 used the J75-P-17.



Steven P. McNicoll July 12th 04 02:01 AM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Details?


The following letter appeared in the USA Today "Letters" section on June
25th last, page 8A:



Criticism of Kerry's Purple Heart is just

Retired U.S. army colonel David Hackworth defends presidential
candidate John Kerry's Purple Hearts. He correctly notes that they are
awarded for a wound that necessitates treatment by a medical officer and
that is received in action with an enemy ('The meaning of a Purple Heart,"
The Forum, June 16).

I was the commanding officer to whom Kerry reported his injury on Dec.
3, 1968. I had confirmed that there was no hostile fire that night and that
Kerry had simply wounded himself with an M-79 grenade round he fired too
close. He wanted a Purple Heart, and I refused. Louis Letson, the base
physician, saw Kerry and used tweezers to remove the tiny piece of
shrapnel - about 1 centi*meter in length and 2 millimeters in di*ameter.
Letson also confirmed that the scratch was inflicted with our M-79.

We admire Col. Hackworth, but he, above all people, knows why it is
unac*ceptable to nominate yourself for an award. It compromises the basic
military principle that we survive together. To promote yourself is to
denigrate your team. I hope Col. Hackworth will rethink his characterization
of Kerry's swift-boat comrades as "grousers" passing on "secondhand bilge."
In our case, this is firsthand knowledge, and our integrity is unquestioned.

Kerry orchestrated his way out of Viet*nam and then testified, under
oath, be*fore Congress that we, his comrades, had committed horrible war
crimes. This tes*timony was a lie and slandered honor*able men. We, who were
actually there, believe he is unfit to command our sons and daughters.

Grant Hibbard, retired commander US. Navy, Gulf Breeze, Fla.

Louis Letson, M.D. Retired lieutenant commander Medical Corps, US. Navy
Reserve Scottsboro, Ala.



Ian MacLure July 12th 04 02:42 AM

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

But it was not manditory, a
sharp troop with a good record and test taking capability had a good
chance.


Bush scored in the lowest percentile allowed to qualify for pilot
training. He did not complete any sort of officer qualification
course.


Ed Rasimus claims otherwise and he was in a position to actually
know about such things. Bush got the same basic training as many
other ANG officer candidates.

IBM

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Steven P. McNicoll July 12th 04 03:35 AM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

But Bush skated out on the last two years of his six year commitment, but

then
has the gall to attack Senator Kerry's service. That needs to be

confronted.


You keep saying that, but you have yet to present any hard evidence of it.



Steven P. McNicoll July 12th 04 03:35 AM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The
draft ended in 1972.


So, then, what you're saying is he elected not to volunteer for Vietnam.



Steven P. McNicoll July 12th 04 03:45 AM


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

Bush was not elected. He was appointed.


You need to find better sources of information.




We'll fix that in November.


Another attempt to steal an election? Bush will be reelected.



Steven P. McNicoll July 12th 04 03:46 AM


"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

Who did you support for president in 1992? 1996?


There's no way Kramer can answer that question without looking
foolish....again.


He's in the same boat as many that condemn Bush, and they all look mighty
foolish.



Ian MacLure July 12th 04 04:05 AM

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:

[snip]

And he was a "C: student through school. Not exactly the most coloful
crayon in the box.


Einstein failed math. Whats your point?

IBM


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BUFDRVR July 12th 04 04:18 AM

Steven P. McNicoll wrote;

He's in the same boat as many that condemn Bush, and they all look mighty
foolish.


I don't know, some who oppose Bush just have different views on certain issues,
but these far left wackos who fully supported Clinton for 8 years and defended
his actions during the Vietnam era look like fools attacking Bush on his
actions. Kramer is one of them. He voted for Clinton in '92 over Bush, a WW II
aviator and again in '96 by voting for Clinton over Bob Dole, a decorated 10th
Mountain Division soldier in Italy during WW II. Kramer doesn't care about
combat, he cares about social security and the democrats long ago convinced the
older generation that Republicans are out to steal their SS.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Steven P. McNicoll July 12th 04 04:19 AM


"B2431" wrote in message
...

If going into actual combat is all that makes a man respectable then it's

safe
to assume you don't respect your ground crew and all the men who put you

in a
servicable airplane. Someone had to be cooks, clerical staff, truck
drivers..etc.


Kramer has indicated many times in this forum that he did not respect those
people.



Steven P. McNicoll July 12th 04 04:19 AM


"D. Strang" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

It's telling that a soldier like Senator Dole quit the senate to run for

President,
and JFKerry who is keeping a backup plan. His attendance record is really
hurting his state, but it is another form of self-service.


Kerry is the most liberal person in the Senate, his attendance record can
only help his state and the rest of the country.



Regnirps July 12th 04 05:45 AM

"D. Strang" wrote in message

I remember queuing up for a C-141 ride to Panama. This LtCol came
out and told us that the Officers would get on first so they could pick the
best seats, and the enlisted would get on second.


I don't recall any "best steats" unless you mean sitting in the webbing with
your back to one of the couple of tiny windows. If you tried to look out for
very lonf you got a major pain in the neck. No, but I DO remember clever pilots
slipping to loose altitude with a bay full of people facing sideways and no
windows. There were a lot of folks trying not to loose their cookies.

-- Charlie Springer


Regnirps July 12th 04 06:03 AM

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Kerry went to war. Bush didn't


So volunteering and getting turned down isn't good enough? I wanted to be a FAC
but was 4F with kidney stones (how do you get kidney stones at that age?). At
least that meant i could get in tge lifeboat before the women and children ;-)

Bush went the whole route of training and flying. Then they phased out his
plane. We ARE taking about the Johnson Era military after all. They had me mow
lawns for three weeks then sent me home.

Hmmm. I have enjoyed our converstions in the past, but I don't understand this
attitude. Could it be that Bush was a pilot and you were a ???? Is something
eating at you about that after all this time?

-- Charlie Springer


Mike Williamson July 12th 04 06:03 AM

Ian MacLure wrote:



Anyone wounded three times could opt out.



Of course if its discovered that any of those were self
inflicted as it is alleged that Baby Killer Kerry did...


In his defense, I haven't seen any reports that he *intentionally*
wounded himeself, as is traditionally considered in the
self-inflicted wound category. Apparently this was more an instance
of carelessness than intent to injure himself.

Mike


Regnirps July 12th 04 06:14 AM

(WalterM140) wrote:

Anyone wounded three times could opt out.


The rules are very specific and he met them with the possible exception of the
rummored self inflicted wound from gofing around with agrenade launcher. But
the nature of the mission and action being undertaked might mitigate that if
true. there is debate between his own statements and those of some of his crew
and the physician.

One of the wounds was treated with a bandaid. By the strick interpretation, he
qualified. However there were plenty of men on the ground who would have had
dozens of awards if they counted every bandaid type wound received under the
amended Purple Heart rules and they stayed for years. Most of the time Kerry
was in the Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club.

-- Charlie Springer


Regnirps July 12th 04 06:16 AM

(ArtKramr) wrote:

If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would do
the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.


Sorry, you can only get one Purple Heart.

-- Charlie Springer


Steve Hix July 12th 04 07:07 AM

In article ,
(Regnirps) wrote:

(ArtKramr) wrote:

If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would do
the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.


Sorry, you can only get one Purple Heart.


This is going to surprise a lot of veterans who earned multiple purple
hearts.

Dweezil Dwarftosser July 12th 04 08:46 AM

Ian MacLure wrote:

(WalterM140) wrote:


Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The draft
ended in 1972.


So explain how he graduated from a 4 yr college in 1974.
Did he have a time machine?


Snicker. Most of the folks attending NCSU (Edwards' alma mater)
are on the five-year-plan for their four-year degrees, today.

Dweezil Dwarftosser July 12th 04 09:00 AM

"D. Strang" wrote:

"Steve Mellenthin" wrote

I get the feeling somehow that our friend JFkerry wasn't as committed to
service as he was to self. Sorta seems as if he couldn't wait to get back to
the States to campaign and help out his little friend Janie.


It's telling that a soldier like Senator Dole quit the senate to run for President,
and JFKerry who is keeping a backup plan. His attendance record is really
hurting his state, but it is another form of self-service.


Heheh. Edwards' attendance record isn't even half as good
as Kerry's. I live in North Carolina - in Raleigh, Edwards'
current home. For the past six years, the only time we've seen
or heard from him, was on TV giving a fund-raising speech in
Iowa. There are only two known examples of his responses to
constituents' letters and petitions.

But we didn't complain; the less time he spent in DC or Raleigh,
the less he could screw things up.
He would not have been re-elected a Senator - and NC will once
again award all its electoral votes to Bush in November.

Watch.

WalterM140 July 12th 04 10:32 AM

He voted for Clinton in '92 over Bush, a WW II
aviator


As president, Bush 41 stumbled into an unneccesary war in the Gulf that cost @
300 US servicemen their lives. He needed to go.

What I can't figure is how many veterans of combat who post here are oblivious
to the fact that both Bush presidencies have cost us hundreds of dead service
people to no good purpose whatsoever.

The roots of this war can be traced easily back to 1990-91. And we now have
7,000 + casualties in Iraq and we are less safer here at home, we're
bankrupting ourselves, the intellgence community is in a shambles, and we've
distanced ourselves from our best allies.

Bush is the worst president ever and he has to go.

Walt

WalterM140 July 12th 04 10:33 AM

Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The
draft ended in 1972.


So, then, what you're saying is he elected not to volunteer for Vietnam.


I am pretty sure the particulars of that will come out.

Walt


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