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-   -   Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=9683)

SteveM8597 July 20th 04 03:18 PM

Good work. Now stay in there and fight to put a SR in front of that VP. I
know
you can do it.


Arthur Kramer


Sorry but I am a retired, retired triple dipper 35 years with the AF but too
young for social security. So I think I will just continue to watch the kids
throw sand on one another in this here sandbox, and sell stuff on Ebay.

Ed Rasimus July 20th 04 03:24 PM

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:35:10 -0700, Mary Shafer
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:36:59 -0600, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

The T-38 has been a great airplane for 42 years of training and with
the upgraded glass cockpit looks like it will be active in SUPT for
another 20 years at least.


I have a friend who went from F-18s and SR-71s to T-38s (Bs, I think)


That doesn't track. Was he on USN exchange? Was he flying "company"
SR-71? If he was USAF it isn't likely that he would have been flying
either, but then how did he get to T-38s? The only "B" models are
AT-38s, which are only flown by the SUPT fighter-leadin squadron. The
NASA, ATC/UPT Talons are all "A" models.

with conventional cockpits. He sure missed the HUD at first. I don't
think he realized how much difference it made to him. I could have
told him, though, because having a HUD greatly improves my piloting,
so think of what it does for a real pilot.


Did the SR-71 get a HUD? Dunno what there would be to see out the
window.

Does the T-38 glass cockpit have a HUD? NASA did a cockpit upgrade on
the JSC T-38s, but I'm pretty sure it didn't include a HUD.


The glass mod does include a HUD.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

ArtKramr July 20th 04 03:30 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (SteveM8597)
Date: 7/20/2004 7:18 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Good work. Now stay in there and fight to put a SR in front of that VP. I
know
you can do it.


Arthur Kramer


Sorry but I am a retired, retired triple dipper 35 years with the AF but too
young for social security. So I think I will just continue to watch the kids
throw sand on one another in this here sandbox, and sell stuff on Ebay.


Yup. Ebay is fun.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Ed Rasimus July 20th 04 03:31 PM

On 20 Jul 2004 02:31:02 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote;

In '83 we got the entire AT-38 fleet painted in a standard
blue-blue-gray gloss camo.


Affectionately known as "Smurf Jets".

Spins in a T-38 are
unrecoverable as well, but also virtually unattainable.


Not sure if they did this while you were at UPT Ed, but early on in the T-38
syllabus they take you out and demo how resistant the T-38 is to spin. The
instructor flys because if they let a student try, you know they'de get it into
a spin ;)


Trust me, they wouldn't be able to spin the T-38. In Lead-in we
regularly put the stick in every corner of the cockpit and abused the
airplane in ways that used to dazzle the FAIPs we had come through the
program with 1500-2000 hours already in the jet. No spins.

The procedure which MIGHT get a spin was full aft stick at max rate.
But, it had to be done after a nose down unload excursion at nearly
max rate as well. So, pump the nose down hard then quickly reverse and
bang the pole back into your lap. Most folks can't begin to get the
stick rate required and unless the bird is rigged poorly, even then
won't get a departure.

It used to be a common Aggressor trick with the Talon to "nose
pump"--get trapped in lag near to a gun shot, so pump the stick fore
and aft trying to get an couple of extra degrees of lead for a film
shot. Even then, no spins.

We taught rudder rolls, over/under, loaded/unloaded, with or without
full aileron deflection. No spins. We taught gun defense jinking as:
1.) check airspeed to be sure you're below corner velocity, 2.) now
plant the stick in random corners of the cockpit at full speed. 3.)
lather, rinse, repeat. No spins.

It just won't spin. Run it straight up to zero airspeed, put in full
rudder and max aileron--no spins. It simply swaps ends.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

WalterM140 July 20th 04 05:11 PM

Would this be the Senate that contained something like 45-50
Democrats? None of whome could be inveigled into signing on?


Yeah, that's weird, isn't it? Tom Dashchle (sp) directed that no senator

sign.


Walt


What are we talking about? It'd be nice if enough of the original topic had
been retained so that we wouldn't have to ask.

George Z.


Sorry. the subject was the certification of Florida electors in 2000.

Walt

Jack July 20th 04 05:14 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote:

The procedure which MIGHT get a spin was full aft stick at max rate.
But, it had to be done after a nose down unload excursion at nearly
max rate as well. So, pump the nose down hard then quickly reverse and
bang the pole back into your lap.


This had to be done in an inverted position, as I remember it, in order
to get that last bit of pitch excursion -- from full nose up (inverted)
to max rate nose down in order to get the Talon to spin.

I never wanted to walk home, so I wouldn't know from personal experience.


Jack

Howard Austin July 20th 04 06:20 PM

(long Snip)

We taught rudder rolls, over/under, loaded/unloaded, with or without
full aileron deflection. No spins. We taught gun defense jinking as:
1.) check airspeed to be sure you're below corner velocity, 2.) now
plant the stick in random corners of the cockpit at full speed. 3.)
lather, rinse, repeat. No spins.

It just won't spin. Run it straight up to zero airspeed, put in full
rudder and max aileron--no spins. It simply swaps ends.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8



The T-38 dash one used to read "If the aircraft is allowed to enter a
stabilized spin loss of the aircraft and crew is probable."

If I remember correctly it took the Northrup test pilots several weeks
to learn how to make it spin. Fortunately their aircraft were equiped
with recovery chutes.

Howard Austin

--
--
Howard Austin
none

Jarg July 20th 04 07:06 PM

"WalterM140" wrote in message
...
But I'd like you to provide a quote that the NYT said what you suggest.


"The NYT said what I suggest."

-- Charlie Springer


So you don't have a source.

Walt


I can't believe you missed the multiple reports by every legitimate media
source confirming that Bush won legitimately, but here is the requested link
anyway:

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/politics/recount/

Jarg




George Z. Bush July 20th 04 07:26 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...
Would this be the Senate that contained something like 45-50
Democrats? None of whome could be inveigled into signing on?

Yeah, that's weird, isn't it? Tom Dashchle (sp) directed that no senator

sign.


Walt


What are we talking about? It'd be nice if enough of the original topic had
been retained so that we wouldn't have to ask.

George Z.


Sorry. the subject was the certification of Florida electors in 2000.

Walt


So, the comment about Daschle would have referred to something like what Denny
Hastert did with the discharge petition for the vote on concurrent receipt which
got only ONE Republican vote from the entire House? Or doesn't one size fit all
when it comes to politics.....nasty when the Dems do it in the Senate, but OK
when the Repubs do it in the House? Sounds like a case of the whines to me.

George Z.



John S. Shinal July 20th 04 08:55 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote:

As for the paint job, if his is the one that's been seen on several TV
commercials, it's done in gloss while the Aggressor T-38s were all
flat.


This was on a cover for Plane & Pilot or something similar
around 1990. You are right it was gloss, I thought it was
blue/gray/white but it may have been just blue& white. Medium sized
N-number on the side. It may well have been sold & repainted since
then. I do recall that Thornton was the first private T-38, though.


The Nellis T-38 Aggressors came in all colors including the
basic white as well as blues, grays, browns and "lizard."


I have an older book about Red Flag that shows a bunch of
different Agressor color schemes - some are Rooskie knockoffs, and
some appear to be improvised. Most look pretty effective.

We got them all at Holloman while I was there. Over the NM desert, the
most effective was the brown.


I heard the worst was painted like a bruised banana for a
while - it was supposed to be a modified Snake scheme that went awry.
Eventually they repainted it so people wouldn't tally it from so far
away.




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