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-   -   Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=9683)

WalterM140 July 12th 04 10:37 AM

But Bush skated out on the last two years of his six year commitment, but
then
has the gall to attack Senator Kerry's service. That needs to be

confronted.


You keep saying that, but you have yet to present any hard evidence of it.



Hard evidence.

What there is no hard evidence of is of Bush's attendance at a drill after May,
1972, or a photo of him, or anyone who remembers him.

The commanding officer to whom he was support to report in Alabama has said
categorically that Bush -did-not- report. The unit Bush was assigned to in
October 1973 is/was in Denver. Bush was at Harvard.

Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment.

Walt

WalterM140 July 12th 04 11:31 AM

Anyone wounded three times could opt out.

Of course if its discovered that any of those were self
inflicted as it is alleged that Baby Killer Kerry did...


Seriously now. Have you got even a shred of proof of that?

No wonder this country is going in the toilet if people like you vote.

Walt

WalterM140 July 12th 04 12:14 PM

Of course if its discovered that any of those were self
inflicted as it is alleged that Baby Killer Kerry did...


In his defense, I haven't seen any reports that he *intentionally*
wounded himeself, as is traditionally considered in the
self-inflicted wound category. Apparently this was more an instance
of carelessness than intent to injure himself.


Apparently? Apparently what?

There's been no hint that Kerry's service was anything less than exemplary.

His fit rep:

"In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG
(Lieutenant Junior Grade) Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics
and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every
opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat
operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly
assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush.
This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIAs.

LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing
and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the
Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training
programs.

During this period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star
medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards).

18 Dec 1969"

http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp



Walt



Cub Driver July 12th 04 12:14 PM


Platoon is good fiction


I don't agree. I think of it as the least of the Vietnam war movies
(well, there was always "A Yank in Vietnam"), and a wholly
unconvincing portrait of combat. It's not even good fiction.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

Tex Houston July 12th 04 01:20 PM


"Regnirps" wrote in message
...
(ArtKramr) wrote:

If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I

would do
the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same

thing.

Sorry, you can only get one Purple Heart.

-- Charlie Springer


Why would you assume you could get only one Purple Heart?

Extract...

This award, the modern form of the original Purple Heart established by
General George Washington in 1782, is conferred on any person wounded in
action while serving with the Armed Forces of the United States. It is also
awarded posthumously to the next of kin of personnel killed or having died
of wounds received in action after April 5, 1917.

The Purple Heart is awarded for wounds or death as result of an act of any
opposing Armed Force, as a result of an international terrorist attack or as
a result of military operations while serving as part of a peacekeeping
force. Prior to the adoption of the Legion of Merit and Bronze Star Medal,
it was given by the Army for meritorious service. The decoration was
authorized for the Army by a War Department order of February 22, 1932, and
for Navy and Marine Corps personnel by a Navy Department order of January
21, 1943, superseded by an executive order of November 12, 1952.

The heart-shaped medal, one of the best known and also one of the most
beautiful of our decorations, was designed by Elizabeth Will and modeled by
John R. Sinnock. The inner heart on the obverse is of purple plastic
(originally enamel), and the sculptured outer heart of gold-colored metal.
On the purple heart General Washington is shown in profile, facing left, in
a relief also of gold-colored metal. Above this heart is Washington's coat
of arms, and enamel shield of white with two horizontal bands of red, and
above them three red stars with sprays of green leaves on either side of the
shield.

The reverse of the medal is entirely of gold-colored metal, including the
shield and leaves. Within the sculptured outer heart and below the shield is
the inscription, set in three lines, "For Military Merit," with a space
below for the recipient's name. The ribbon is deep purple with narrow white
edges.

Second and subsequent awards of the Purple Heart are denoted by a gold star
for Navy and Marine Corps personnel and by an oak-leaf cluster for Army and
Air Force personnel. Authorized Device: Oak leaf Cluster.



End...

Note the last sentence.



Tex Houston








D. Strang July 12th 04 01:24 PM

"Cub Driver" wrote

Platoon is good fiction


I don't agree. I think of it as the least of the Vietnam war movies
(well, there was always "A Yank in Vietnam"), and a wholly
unconvincing portrait of combat. It's not even good fiction.


I've seen a lot of Westerns, and John Wayne war movies, and Platoon
is near the top, mainly for the script, and for the acting. It probably
has as much to do with Vietnam, as John Wayne's had to do about
D-Day or the Pacific.



D. Strang July 12th 04 01:32 PM

"Regnirps" wrote
(ArtKramr) wrote:

If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would do
the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.


Sorry, you can only get one Purple Heart.


You are incorrect. Any medal can be won multiple times. You might display them
with oak leaves or stars, but those represent a medal. Actually, it is the paperwork
that has the most value. The medal is just something for mamma.



D. Strang July 12th 04 01:45 PM

"WalterM140" wrote
He voted for Clinton in '92 over Bush, a WW II
aviator


As president, Bush 41 stumbled into an unneccesary war in the Gulf that cost @
300 US servicemen their lives. He needed to go.

What I can't figure is how many veterans of combat who post here are oblivious
to the fact that both Bush presidencies have cost us hundreds of dead service
people to no good purpose whatsoever.

The roots of this war can be traced easily back to 1990-91. And we now have
7,000 + casualties in Iraq and we are less safer here at home, we're
bankrupting ourselves, the intellgence community is in a shambles, and we've
distanced ourselves from our best allies.

Bush is the worst president ever and he has to go.


The war in Iraq has been going on since 1980. The United States has been on the
ground in that region since Iraq invaded Iran. We tried to work it diplomatically,
but the world had other interests. The United States and the United Kingdom
invaded Iraq to end the 20 plus years of war.

It is and was a necessary war. We are a fossil fuel economy, and the oil fields of
Iraq, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia will be protected until this country finds an
alternative fuel. Men and Women will die to keep the freedom and the economy
we enjoy.

As a veteran of two major wars, I can say that I support the wars we have in the
Middle East, the far East, and in South America. These wars are important, and
people die in wars. The number of dead are a fraction of those killed on the
highways, and those killed from HIV.

Bush is no worse than any other President.



ArtKramr July 12th 04 02:41 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/12/2004 4:14 AM


There's been no hint that Kerry's service was anything less than exemplary.


His fit rep:

"In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG
(Lieutenant Junior Grade) Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed
tactics
and lessons learned in river operations and applied his


xperience at every
opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat
operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly
assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the
ambush.


This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIAs.


Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero. And it is driving the neocons nut
especially when we look at the war records of president Cheney and vice
president Bush..


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


ArtKramr July 12th 04 02:51 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (Regnirps)
Date: 7/11/2004 10:16 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote:

If I got wounded twice and got two Purple Hearts and a Silver Star I would

do
the same thing. Anyone with a brain in their head would do the same thing.


Sorry, you can only get one Purple Heart.

-- Charlie Springer


Totally untrue



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Steve Mellenthin July 12th 04 03:26 PM


Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero. And it is driving the neocons
nut
especially when we look at the war records of president Cheney and vice
president Bush..


Art, it isn't driving anyone nuts save maybe the people who are trying so hard
to convince the rest of the world of the validity of Kerry's service. The
people who have been in and around the military in the last 40 years aren't
being swayed. Until military people are convinced that Kerry's service was
exactly as it is described in his citations, I doubt if anyone who is a
conserative will be swayed in the least or be driven nuts. Few vets have
stepped forward to support Kerry's account of events.

The military is still getting over the Carter and Clinton legacies of neglect
and disrespect and isn't apt to make an exodus towards the Democratic side any
time soon in any event. I have two sons in the miltary and have spent 34 years
combined actiove duty and civilian with the Air Force so I have some insight in
this regard.

The attempt to play up Kerry as a war hero and put down Bush as a deserter has
been nothing more all along than an attempt for the Democrats to gain traction
with the military and it has failed. All it has done is to serve as a rallying
point for people who want to see Bush out rather than to win hearts and minds
of the opposition.

Right now we have a candidate who has a record of fighting terorism and another
candidate whose position on just about everything is either uncertain or
waivering. This is more about the bitter people who feel the election was
"stolen" than it is about candidates. The loss of that election shifted the
power balance in the federal government somewhat, an unacceptable situation to
the Democratic would-be power brokers. Frankly I can't imagine Algore as
President given his behavior since the election

So tell me, what would Kerry do that is so wonderful and how would we as a
people better off. Don't start with feeling unsafe - we have always been
unsafe but just awfully naive in the past about our enemies. We just haven't
wanted to believe we were in danger. Now we know we are and it has nothing to
do with the current president. I am not sure Europe matters as much as some
would like to believe at this juncture either. The future lies with Eastern
Europe and Asia, both of which have generally supported our efforts in Iraq.
The economy? Jobs? They are improving so obviously not a players either.

Maybe someone can convince me otherwise but I am certain this is more over
hatred of Bush over the loss of the last election, Gore won????? People seem
to forget that the overseas absentee ballots for the military were not counted
because of another technicality as obtuse as hanging chads. Those votes could
well have changed the outcome of the popular vote as well.

Ed Rasimus July 12th 04 03:49 PM

On 11 Jul 2004 23:34:41 GMT, (Bill Shatzer)
wrote:

Ed Rasimus ) writes:


And, you really might want to look up the duration of Mr. Gore's
overseas assignment.


Everything I've seen sez it was early January, '71 through late
May, '71 with a scheduled discharge date of August 5, '71.


You have information to the contrary?


Here's a quote: "When they finally came, he would spend less than
five months in Vietnam, arriving on Jan. 8, 1971, to write newspaper
and magazine articles. He was discharged on May 24, 1971." (The
Washington Times National Weekly Edition Nov. 28 - Dec. 4, 1994)


I said Gore spent 151 days of a year tour. You replied that he only
got a two-month curtailment. The difference would be 151 days
(Jan-May???) versus 10 months x 30 days or 300 days. I think the
Washington Times dates, my statement, and your "Everything I've seen
sez" all indicate that your asssertion of a two month curtailment was
incorrect. So, we have information to the contrary.


I'm really trying to understand your point, Ed, and I'm apparently
missing it completely. Gore had, at most, a seven month tour.


Now, read slowly:

1. January
2. February
3. March
4. April
5. May.

That leads me to believe that 5 is not equal to 7 and 7 is very much
less than 12. And two from twelve is ten which is much more than
either five or seven.

Gove's enlistment was up on August 5, 1971. As I don't think they
were doing "stop-loses" in that era and certainly not for folks
with journalist MOSs, Gove was NOT going to be in VN after
early August in any event.


If he shipped to arrive in theater on January 8, then he left CONUS on
January 5. His DEROS would be January 5 of 1972. If he did not have a
full year of retainability, he would not have shipped for the
controlled tour.

Regardless, August is not May.

If he was discharged May 24, he served in VN two months and 12
days less than the maximum he might have served there.


I don't understand the sort of math required to get 151 days of a 365
day tour and have the difference be a shortfall of 72 days. I come up
with 215 days short.

Frankly, I agree with the contention that it doesn't matter. Gore was
clearly not a component of US combat capability. Or, maybe we just
weren't yet ready to "unleash" him...




Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus July 12th 04 03:55 PM

On 12 Jul 2004 13:41:05 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.


Who by his own admission in sworn Senate testimony was personally
guilty of committing war crimes and atrocities as well as personally
observing them in his role as a commissioned officer yet not doing
anything to stop them.

And it is driving the neocons nut
especially when we look at the war records of president Cheney and vice
president Bush..


You're enamored of a new word, which you continue to use without
regard to its origins or even its meaning. You may continue to use it,
although since I've been a "conservative" since I first registered to
vote in 1963, I don't think there's anything particularly "neo" about
me.

I hereby confer upon you a proper title which you have earned by dint
of your advanced age and heartily embraced political ideology: I dub
thee "paleo-lib". Henceforth, you shall be referred to subsequent to
each incorrect application of neo-con as our resident "paleo-lib."

So let it be written, so let it be done.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Steve Mellenthin July 12th 04 04:12 PM

I hereby confer upon you a proper title which you have earned by dint
of your advanced age and heartily embraced political ideology: I dub
thee "paleo-lib". Henceforth, you shall be referred to subsequent to
each incorrect application of neo-con as our resident "paleo-lib.


So whqt does that make our generation, Ed? I am not ready just yet to be
called a paleocon.

ArtKramr July 12th 04 04:42 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 7/12/2004 7:55 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On 12 Jul 2004 13:41:05 GMT,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.


Who by his own admission in sworn Senate testimony was personally
guilty of committing war crimes and atrocities as well as personally
observing them in his role as a commissioned officer yet not doing
anything to stop them.

And it is driving the neocons nut
especially when we look at the war records of president Cheney and vice
president Bush..


You're enamored of a new word, which you continue to use without
regard to its origins or even its meaning. You may continue to use it,
although since I've been a "conservative" since I first registered to
vote in 1963, I don't think there's anything particularly "neo" about
me.

I hereby confer upon you a proper title which you have earned by dint
of your advanced age and heartily embraced political ideology: I dub
thee "paleo-lib". Henceforth, you shall be referred to subsequent to
each incorrect application of neo-con as our resident "paleo-lib."

So let it be written, so let it be done.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8



Anything to take the focus off Bush. Any doversion or distraction. Talk about
anything and anyone, Gore, Clinton,me, but never about Bush. It won't work.
Vice President Bush is the issue, and the only issue.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


George Shirley July 12th 04 04:46 PM

Steve Mellenthin wrote:
I hereby confer upon you a proper title which you have earned by dint
of your advanced age and heartily embraced political ideology: I dub
thee "paleo-lib". Henceforth, you shall be referred to subsequent to
each incorrect application of neo-con as our resident "paleo-lib.



So whqt does that make our generation, Ed? I am not ready just yet to be
called a paleocon.


I registered to vote a few years before Ed (1960) and I'm not ready to
be called a paleocon either. Conservative yes, life-long Republican yes,
but (sob), I'm too young to be called paleo anything. BSEG

George


John S. Shinal July 12th 04 05:16 PM

Cub Driver wrote:
can't see the aileron horn coming at you.


OW ! OW ! OW !

At least you managed not to pour avgas over the fresh wound
when checking the sump.


Chris Mark July 12th 04 05:18 PM

From: (WalterM140)

the intellgence community is in a shambles,


Bush certainly deserves some blame for that, but the real problem set in long
ago, during the Carter administration, with the "Hallowe'en Massacre" under
Carter's CIA chief Stansfield Turner. He executed a purge of almost 3,000
intelligence officers, some 2,000 of them covert agents and paramilitary
specialists. Since then, the CIA has been gelded, involved mostly in
intelligence gathering and analysis.
We really do need a thorough examination of our intelligence services
effectiveness and then decide what we want them to do. A powerful covert
operations program in the OSS/early CIA mode (think Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy;
you know, _real_ Democrats), although anathema to the far left, might be just
what we need in the kind of war we find ourselves in today: Let the damned
terrorists and terrorist-supporting nations be afraid of _our_ terrorists, who
should be a million times better trained, equipped and supported than theirs
ever could be.
We've had an intelligence disaster brewing since Carter (actually probably from
Ford) and we really need to take a look at what we are doing. We used to be
pretty good at influencing foreign events without outright invasions, getting
rid of foreign leaders we didn't like, fomenting coups...whatever it took, from
Iran to Chile. But then we decided that was A Bad Thing. So now, the only
option we have when we want a regime change is a full-scale military invasion,
from Panama to Iraq.
We need to rethink this. That doesn't mean we should just go back to what we
did before with the CIA, et al. We made some stupid mistakes then, from Greece
to the Bay of Pigs. We know what they were and why they happened. We ought to
be able to do it better this time around. In any case, we need a wider range
of options, and greater latitude to act pre-emptively when we see a bad
situation developing.


Chris Mark

John S. Shinal July 12th 04 05:34 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote:

On 12 Jul 2004 13:41:05 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.


Who by his own admission in sworn Senate testimony was personally
guilty of committing war crimes and atrocities as well as personally
observing them in his role as a commissioned officer yet not doing
anything to stop them.


I'm not convinced JFK would recognize a war crime if it was
giftwrapped and handed to him. He seems to think that use of an M2 is
a war crime.

That being said, I have no problem with his stance on being
against armed conflict. He's seen the elephant up close and personal,
and killed face to face. He was anti-war to begin with, enlisted
anyway and served with what appears to be significant leadership under
some pretty nasty combat. His initial PH, I don't know enough about to
comment on. His later actions, including the famed dismount from the
boat to engage a VC with an RPG seem pretty gutsy and straightforward.
The firsthand accounts from his boat crew on that day were on a major
news show recently (60 minutes ?). I saw no problems in judgement.
Whether his subsequent discharge hinged on the first PH, I don't know.
I wonder about how it compares to someone like Sgt. Kregg Jorgenson
who continued walking point after several PHs and being very badly
shot up...

Kerry's subsequent voting record, especially in the very tense
80s, is something I *do* question. He was against virtually every
major and necessary defense program, including those that turned out
to be excellent purchases (like - the M1 Abrahms tank, the Patriot
missile system, etc). His persistent lack of understanding the
principles of defense programs and infrastructure, and of strategy and
grand strategy is where I find my biggest differences with him.

It's fortunate that he has come down squarely on BOTH sides of
every issue - so I can tell he agrees with me and always has - but I
can't be confident he'll carry out the solutions to these same issues.


You're enamored of a new word, which you continue to use without
regard to its origins or even its meaning. You may continue to use it,
although since I've been a "conservative" since I first registered to
vote in 1963, I don't think there's anything particularly "neo" about
me.


A lot of people seem to use "neo" to indicate "similar to but
an extreme form of...". I think I like "paraconservative" better.



Steve Mellenthin July 12th 04 05:44 PM

from Greece
to the Bay of Pigs. We know what they were and why they happened. We ought
to
be able to do it better this time around. In any case, we need a wider range
of options, and greater latitude to act pre-emptively when we see a bad
situation developing.


Chris Mark







Well put Chris. I agree completely.

B2431 July 12th 04 06:02 PM

(John S. Shinal)
Date: 7/12/2004 11:16 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Cub Driver wrote:
can't see the aileron horn coming at you.


OW ! OW ! OW !

At least you managed not to pour avgas over the fresh wound
when checking the sump.


Never mind that, was the aileron horn damaged?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

ian maclure July 12th 04 06:03 PM

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:31:31 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

Anyone wounded three times could opt out.


Of course if its discovered that any of those were self
inflicted as it is alleged that Baby Killer Kerry did...


Seriously now. Have you got even a shred of proof of that?


More proof than you've got

No wonder this country is going in the toilet if people like you vote.


No, its going into the toilet because they let anybody with a
body a few degrees above room tempterature vote. In some
cases ( and guess which party they have historically been
associated with ) you don't even need to be breathing to vote.
That would certainly explain Algore. He's from the Zombie wing
of the Dimmocrips.

IBM

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
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ian maclure July 12th 04 06:11 PM

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:37:10 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

But Bush skated out on the last two years of his six year commitment, but

then
has the gall to attack Senator Kerry's service. That needs to be

confronted.


You keep saying that, but you have yet to present any hard evidence of it.



Hard evidence.

What there is no hard evidence of is of Bush's attendance at a drill
after May, 1972, or a photo of him, or anyone who remembers him.


And why should there be a photo? The military isn't Life Magazine
you know.

The commanding officer to whom he was support to report in Alabama has said
categorically that Bush -did-not- report. The unit Bush was assigned to in


And this elderly gentleman's memory from 30 years ago si of course
100% accurate.

October 1973 is/was in Denver. Bush was at Harvard.


The unit in Denver was reportedly a holding unit for adminsitrative
purposes if I understand correctly. Seems an appropriate place to
put someone who's in grad school. The military does allow that you
know.

Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment.


Sez you or rather the voices in your head.

IBM

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ian maclure July 12th 04 06:12 PM

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:33:37 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

Edwards in 51 YO. That would put him in the 1971 HS class. The
draft ended in 1972.


So, then, what you're saying is he elected not to volunteer for Vietnam.


I am pretty sure the particulars of that will come out.


Oh yes, of that you can be sure.
Edwards would be class of '70 and the draft ended in what '73 not 72.
Yes, indeedy....

IBM

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ian maclure July 12th 04 06:21 PM

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:46:07 -0400, Dweezil Dwarftosser wrote:

[snip]

Snicker. Most of the folks attending NCSU (Edwards' alma mater)
are on the five-year-plan for their four-year degrees, today.


Ah.......
Verrrrrry interesting.

IBM

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B2431 July 12th 04 06:23 PM

From: (WalterM140)

snip

No wonder this country is going in the toilet if people like you vote.

Walt


That was uncalled for.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

ian maclure July 12th 04 06:25 PM

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:03:25 +0000, Mike Williamson wrote:

Ian MacLure wrote:


[snip]

In his defense, I haven't seen any reports that he *intentionally*
wounded himeself, as is traditionally considered in the
self-inflicted wound category. Apparently this was more an instance
of carelessness than intent to injure himself.


Either way it does not reflect well on Miiister Kerry.
Evil or stupidity. Take your pick.
Mind you issuing skimmers real weapons that aren't
controlled by an FT rating is a very large risk IMHO.

IBM

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Sam Byrams July 12th 04 08:12 PM

All this brings up several things.

One, Bush learned to fly in the military at government expense, did
not complete his assigned commitment, and flew, if I understand ,
fourteen months after UPT and has not flown as PIC or SIC since.
Neither military or elsewise. (Not counting the ride out to the boat
of late.)

Kerry learned to fly not at government expense and apparently has
done so for a number of years.

Now, mind you, I don't like Bush or Kerry as a candidate. Bush was
born on third base and thinks he hit a triple. Kerry is also
apparently something of a rich kid, married Big Ketchup, Ivy League
(yecch), and to top it off is closely associated with a family I
detest and which makes my skin crawl for many reasons (not least of
which the same reason a certain baseball player hated them for every
day of the last 36 years of his life). I can tell you right now I'm
voting third party.

But-be honest-is there any reason I should prefer Bush over Kerry
from an aviation standpoint? Bush, a nonpilot as far as I'm concerned,
has done nothing for aviation in this country. Kerry isn't likely to
either, but how much worse could he be?

The other thing in all this discussion of what balls it takes to
strap on a single engine fighter, is the growing evidence that many
people are willing to pay a lot of money for the privilege. Once
reserved for places like Mojave, the warjet deal is penetrating down
to the backward Midwest. I saw a Sabre and a Hawker Hunter poking
their tails up among the Aztecs and King Airs at the local spam can
patch this week out here. My guess is it costs roughly five hundred
bucks an hour to fly a Sabre. And the civil warjet guys are killing
themselves at a rate that would have embarrassed the Air Force during
the glory days of "Every Man A Tiger".

In and of itself flying fighters is no more heroic than riding a
chopped Harley with the Hells Angels or wreck diving with open circuit
scuba gear. It's what one does, and why, that sometimes might be
heroic. But just climbing up there-if I hit the lottery and could get
the FAA to let me I'd buy-after working my way up a little-the wildest
fighter I could. Simply because it would be-this is 2004, Marilyn's
dead, and she'd be 78 anyway- the biggest ego blast in the world to
taxi up to the ramp at the local FBO in front of all those square-ass
Gulfstream and Lear crews. I know what the statistics are, and I don't
care. I suspect Bush Jr's motives were the same-booze, pussy and
kerosene!












Cub Driver wrote in message . ..
I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
aircraft"! Were they really?


As Ed Rasimus has said: "Every time you kick the tires and light the
fire in a single-engine, single-seat Century Series jet, it can kill
you--all by itself without help from an enemy."
www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm


Steven P. McNicoll July 12th 04 08:22 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

There's been no hint that Kerry's service was anything less than

exemplary.


The following letter appeared in the USA Today "Letters" section on June
25th last, page 8A:



Criticism of Kerry's Purple Heart is just

Retired U.S. army colonel David Hackworth defends presidential
candidate John Kerry's Purple Hearts. He correctly notes that they are
awarded for a wound that necessitates treatment by a medical officer and
that is received in action with an enemy ('The meaning of a Purple Heart,"
The Forum, June 16).

I was the commanding officer to whom Kerry reported his injury on Dec.
3, 1968. I had confirmed that there was no hostile fire that night and that
Kerry had simply wounded himself with an M-79 grenade round he fired too
close. He wanted a Purple Heart, and I refused. Louis Letson, the base
physician, saw Kerry and used tweezers to remove the tiny piece of
shrapnel - about 1 centi*meter in length and 2 millimeters in di*ameter.
Letson also confirmed that the scratch was inflicted with our M-79.

We admire Col. Hackworth, but he, above all people, knows why it is
unac*ceptable to nominate yourself for an award. It compromises the basic
military principle that we survive together. To promote yourself is to
denigrate your team. I hope Col. Hackworth will rethink his characterization
of Kerry's swift-boat comrades as "grousers" passing on "secondhand bilge."
In our case, this is firsthand knowledge, and our integrity is unquestioned.

Kerry orchestrated his way out of Viet*nam and then testified, under
oath, be*fore Congress that we, his comrades, had committed horrible war
crimes. This tes*timony was a lie and slandered honor*able men. We, who were
actually there, believe he is unfit to command our sons and daughters.

Grant Hibbard, retired commander US. Navy, Gulf Breeze, Fla.

Louis Letson, M.D. Retired lieutenant commander Medical Corps, US. Navy
Reserve Scottsboro, Ala.




Steven P. McNicoll July 12th 04 08:22 PM


"Regnirps" wrote in message
...

Sorry, you can only get one Purple Heart.


Plenty have several.



Steven P. McNicoll July 12th 04 08:22 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

What I can't figure is how many veterans of combat who post here are

oblivious
to the fact that both Bush presidencies have cost us hundreds of dead

service
people to no good purpose whatsoever.


Actually, there is far more than that that you cannot figure!



Steven P. McNicoll July 12th 04 08:23 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Hard evidence.

What there is no hard evidence of is of Bush's attendance at a drill after

May,
1972, or a photo of him, or anyone who remembers him.


What there is no hard evidence of is Bush being AWOL.



Steven P. McNicoll July 12th 04 08:23 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Of course if its discovered that any of those were self
inflicted as it is alleged that Baby Killer Kerry did...


Seriously now. Have you got even a shred of proof of that?


The following letter appeared in the USA Today "Letters" section on June
25th last, page 8A:



Criticism of Kerry's Purple Heart is just

Retired U.S. army colonel David Hackworth defends presidential
candidate John Kerry's Purple Hearts. He correctly notes that they are
awarded for a wound that necessitates treatment by a medical officer and
that is received in action with an enemy ('The meaning of a Purple Heart,"
The Forum, June 16).

I was the commanding officer to whom Kerry reported his injury on Dec.
3, 1968. I had confirmed that there was no hostile fire that night and that
Kerry had simply wounded himself with an M-79 grenade round he fired too
close. He wanted a Purple Heart, and I refused. Louis Letson, the base
physician, saw Kerry and used tweezers to remove the tiny piece of
shrapnel - about 1 centi*meter in length and 2 millimeters in di*ameter.
Letson also confirmed that the scratch was inflicted with our M-79.

We admire Col. Hackworth, but he, above all people, knows why it is
unac*ceptable to nominate yourself for an award. It compromises the basic
military principle that we survive together. To promote yourself is to
denigrate your team. I hope Col. Hackworth will rethink his characterization
of Kerry's swift-boat comrades as "grousers" passing on "secondhand bilge."
In our case, this is firsthand knowledge, and our integrity is unquestioned.

Kerry orchestrated his way out of Viet*nam and then testified, under
oath, be*fore Congress that we, his comrades, had committed horrible war
crimes. This tes*timony was a lie and slandered honor*able men. We, who were
actually there, believe he is unfit to command our sons and daughters.

Grant Hibbard, retired commander US. Navy, Gulf Breeze, Fla.

Louis Letson, M.D. Retired lieutenant commander Medical Corps, US. Navy
Reserve Scottsboro, Ala.




Steven P. McNicoll July 12th 04 08:23 PM


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero. And it is driving the neocons

nut
especially when we look at the war records of president Cheney and vice
president Bush..


Comparing the liberal's attitudes towards candidates Kerry and Clinton
illustrates the utter hypocrisy of the left.



Steven P. McNicoll July 12th 04 08:26 PM


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...

If he shipped to arrive in theater on January 8, then he left CONUS on
January 5. His DEROS would be January 5 of 1972. If he did not have a
full year of retainability, he would not have shipped for the
controlled tour.


Why not? Isn't the premise that he was given special treatment?



Steven P. McNicoll July 12th 04 08:27 PM


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

Anything to take the focus off Bush. Any doversion or distraction. Talk

about
anything and anyone, Gore, Clinton,me, but never about Bush. It won't

work.
Vice President Bush is the issue, and the only issue.


Why isn't Kerry the issue?



kontiki July 12th 04 08:42 PM


Sam Byrams wrote:
All this brings up several things.


-clip-

You have to fight your tendency to view a presidential candidate
from the standpoint of aviation. Reagan was not pilot by any measure
but I would classify Kerry as farther away from Reagan (by any number
of measures) than Bush. You can't compare apples and oranges in any
meaningful way.

Bush is more of a statesman that Kerry but not much of one compared
to Teddy Roosevelt or Ronald Reagan. It's all relative.... as for me,
I'll be voting for the lesser of two evils.


Foster July 12th 04 09:10 PM

Or, think of it this way. Bush is an incompetent moron; Kerry isn't.
Bush's incompetence and ego got us into a war we shouldn't be in; Kerry
didn't.

etc., etc., etc.

kontiki wrote:

Sam Byrams wrote:

All this brings up several things.



-clip-

You have to fight your tendency to view a presidential candidate
from the standpoint of aviation. Reagan was not pilot by any measure
but I would classify Kerry as farther away from Reagan (by any number
of measures) than Bush. You can't compare apples and oranges in any
meaningful way.

Bush is more of a statesman that Kerry but not much of one compared
to Teddy Roosevelt or Ronald Reagan. It's all relative.... as for me,
I'll be voting for the lesser of two evils.



Regnirps July 12th 04 09:17 PM

"Steven P. McNicoll"

Sorry, you can only get one Purple Heart.


Plenty have several.


Have you ever seen more than one? The public thinks of the Purple Heart as the
medal, which you can get one of (well, you can buy more). After that,
additional awards can be added in the form of embellishments if the recipient
chooses to stick them on. I have one in the drawer here. It is unadorned but
represents a knifing
while chasing Pancho Villa, a bayonette wound from the scond batle of the Marne
and a great toe shot off in the Chateu Therry (spelling?) campaign, among
ohers. No it wasn't me. They may have still been using sails when I joined the
Navy, but I never knew Pershing.

The requirements for the award were ammended sometime after WWI but I don't
recall when, just that I have read them and that a nick in the skin that may
need a bandaid qualifies if the circumstances are right.

-- Charlie Springer


NW_PILOT July 12th 04 09:45 PM

And you think we are going to have another presidential election in this
country???? I think that bush will stop the election and I have said the
same thing in the past prior to the news reports on how he wants to know how
to delay an election incase of a terrorist attack. If there is an election
this year I will be very surprised. They have already taken away 45% of our
arms so we could not fight an unruly government if bush dose what I think he
is going to do. But I could be wrong.



"Sam Byrams" wrote in message
om...
All this brings up several things.

One, Bush learned to fly in the military at government expense, did
not complete his assigned commitment, and flew, if I understand ,
fourteen months after UPT and has not flown as PIC or SIC since.
Neither military or elsewise. (Not counting the ride out to the boat
of late.)

Kerry learned to fly not at government expense and apparently has
done so for a number of years.

Now, mind you, I don't like Bush or Kerry as a candidate. Bush was
born on third base and thinks he hit a triple. Kerry is also
apparently something of a rich kid, married Big Ketchup, Ivy League
(yecch), and to top it off is closely associated with a family I
detest and which makes my skin crawl for many reasons (not least of
which the same reason a certain baseball player hated them for every
day of the last 36 years of his life). I can tell you right now I'm
voting third party.

But-be honest-is there any reason I should prefer Bush over Kerry
from an aviation standpoint? Bush, a nonpilot as far as I'm concerned,
has done nothing for aviation in this country. Kerry isn't likely to
either, but how much worse could he be?

The other thing in all this discussion of what balls it takes to
strap on a single engine fighter, is the growing evidence that many
people are willing to pay a lot of money for the privilege. Once
reserved for places like Mojave, the warjet deal is penetrating down
to the backward Midwest. I saw a Sabre and a Hawker Hunter poking
their tails up among the Aztecs and King Airs at the local spam can
patch this week out here. My guess is it costs roughly five hundred
bucks an hour to fly a Sabre. And the civil warjet guys are killing
themselves at a rate that would have embarrassed the Air Force during
the glory days of "Every Man A Tiger".

In and of itself flying fighters is no more heroic than riding a
chopped Harley with the Hells Angels or wreck diving with open circuit
scuba gear. It's what one does, and why, that sometimes might be
heroic. But just climbing up there-if I hit the lottery and could get
the FAA to let me I'd buy-after working my way up a little-the wildest
fighter I could. Simply because it would be-this is 2004, Marilyn's
dead, and she'd be 78 anyway- the biggest ego blast in the world to
taxi up to the ramp at the local FBO in front of all those square-ass
Gulfstream and Lear crews. I know what the statistics are, and I don't
care. I suspect Bush Jr's motives were the same-booze, pussy and
kerosene!












Cub Driver wrote in message

. ..
I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
aircraft"! Were they really?


As Ed Rasimus has said: "Every time you kick the tires and light the
fire in a single-engine, single-seat Century Series jet, it can kill
you--all by itself without help from an enemy."
www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm





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