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-   -   Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=9683)

WalterM140 July 8th 04 11:23 PM

Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
 
To put it in perspective, here are 9 ways Bush got favored treatment in the
service due to his political connections (he
was then son of a Congressman and grandson of a former Senator):

1) He got into the Guard by pulling strings, avoiding the year and a half
waiting list;
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#got in

2) He took a 2-month vacation in Florida after just 8 weeks, (1 of 3 leaves),
to
work on a political campaign;
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#firstleave

3) Bush skipped Officer Candidate School and got a special commission as a
2nd
Lieutenant, without qualifications;
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#2ndLt

4) He was assigned to a safe plane (being phased out of active service), the
F-102 ;
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#f102

5) During flight school, he was flown on a government jet to Washington for a
date with President Nixon's daughter Tricia ;
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#date

6) Bush got an illegal transfer (later overruled) to a base with no work;
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#moreleave

7) He simply didn't show up for a YEAR, AWOL with no penalty;
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#AWOL

8) George W. skipped all his medical exams after they started drug tests, and
was removed from flight status;
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#drugtest

9) He ended his service 10 months early to go to Harvard Business School;
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#discharge









To put it in perspective, here are 9 ways Bush got favored treatment in the
service due to his political connections (he
was then son of a Congressman and grandson of a former Senator):

1) He got into the Guard by pulling strings, avoiding the year and a half
waiting list;
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#got in

2) He took a 2-month vacation in Florida after just 8 weeks, (1 of 3 leaves),
to
work on a political campaign;
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#firstleave

3) Bush skipped Officer Candidate School and got a special commission as a
2nd
Lieutenant, without qualifications;
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#2ndLt

4) He was assigned to a safe plane (being phased out of active service), the
F-102 ;
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#f102

5) During flight school, he was flown on a government jet to Washington for a
date with President Nixon's daughter Tricia ;
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#date

6) Bush got an illegal transfer (later overruled) to a base with no work;
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#moreleave

7) He simply didn't show up for a YEAR, AWOL with no penalty;
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#AWOL

8) George W. skipped all his medical exams after they started drug tests, and
was removed from flight status;
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#drugtest

9) He ended his service 10 months early to go to Harvard Business School;
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#discharge


I got a link not found message.

Someone may have hacked the site. That's what they've done to michaelmoore.com
also.

But good work.

Walt

Krztalizer July 9th 04 12:11 AM

I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
aircraft"! Were they really?

v/r
Gordon

B2431 July 9th 04 12:28 AM

From: nt (Krztalizer)
Date: 7/8/2004 6:11 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
aircraft"! Were they really?

v/r
Gordon


They were perfectly safe.........

Unpowered, sitting in a hangar...etc.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired


miket6065 July 9th 04 02:36 AM

They were so "safe" that the design was redesigned into the F106 to fix all
the problems.

MikeT



Ian MacLure July 9th 04 03:33 AM

"miket6065" wrote in
om:

They were so "safe" that the design was redesigned into the F106 to
fix all the problems.


Safety wasn't the problem. Drag was. The F-102 was supposed to be
a supersonic aircraft but wasn't good for much beyond Mach 1.
Area ruling and an increase in power gave us the F-106, easily
capable of Mach 2.

IBM

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
The Worlds Uncensored News Source


Steven P. McNicoll July 9th 04 03:50 AM


"Ian MacLure" wrote in message
...

Safety wasn't the problem. Drag was. The F-102 was supposed to be
a supersonic aircraft but wasn't good for much beyond Mach 1.


That would make it a supersonic aircraft.



Area ruling and an increase in power gave us the F-106, easily
capable of Mach 2.


The F-102A was area ruled.



ArtKramr July 9th 04 04:06 AM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Ian MacLure
Date: 7/8/2004 7:34 PM Pacific Standard Time


(Krztalizer) wrote in
:

I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
aircraft"! Were they really?


Probably no more or less than any high performance jet a/c.
Flying fighters is inherently a hazardous occupation.

IBM



A lot more dangerous over enemy territory than over Texas. Believe me. I have
flown over both.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Ron July 9th 04 05:17 AM

A lot more dangerous over enemy territory than over Texas. Believe me. I
have
flown over both.


What is your opinion of someone who gets a pilot slot in the guard, as opposed
to someone who enters active duty infantry or naval forces, in the present day.




Ron
PA-31T Cheyenne II
Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
Pune, India


ArtKramr July 9th 04 06:06 AM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: 362436 (Ron)
Date: 7/8/2004 9:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

A lot more dangerous over enemy territory than over Texas. Believe me. I
have
flown over both.


What is your opinion of someone who gets a pilot slot in the guard, as
opposed
to someone who enters active duty infantry or naval forces, in the present
day.




Ron
PA-31T Cheyenne II
Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
Pune, India


I'm too much of a coward for the infantry. I'd rather take my chances in the
flak over Germany.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Cub Driver July 9th 04 10:40 AM


I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
aircraft"! Were they really?


As Ed Rasimus has said: "Every time you kick the tires and light the
fire in a single-engine, single-seat Century Series jet, it can kill
you--all by itself without help from an enemy."
www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

There is a page by Walt BJ (based on his posts on this newsgroup) at
http://www.warbirdforum.com/waltbj.htm


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

Cub Driver July 9th 04 10:42 AM


What is your opinion of someone who gets a pilot slot in the guard, as opposed
to someone who enters active duty infantry or naval forces, in the present day.


Smart man!

(This comes from one who went through infantry basic at Fort Dix.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

WalterM140 July 9th 04 11:53 AM

I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
aircraft"! Were they really?


Compared to flying F-105's to Route Package Six, they were very safe when
compared to flying an F-102 over Houston.

Walt

ArtKramr July 9th 04 03:07 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/9/2004 3:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
aircraft"! Were they really?


Compared to flying F-105's to Route Package Six, they were very safe when
compared to flying an F-102 over Houston.

Walt


There was no flak over Houston. Well hardly any. ((:-))



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


ArtKramr July 9th 04 03:13 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Cub Driver
Date: 7/9/2004 2:40 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
aircraft"! Were they really?


As Ed Rasimus has said: "Every time you kick the tires and light the
fire in a single-engine, single-seat Century Series jet, it can kill
you--all by itself without help from an enemy."



Yeah right. It's the kicking the tires that will get you every time.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Smartace11 July 9th 04 03:34 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 7/9/2004 10:13 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Cub Driver

Date: 7/9/2004 2:40 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
aircraft"! Were they really?


As Ed Rasimus has said: "Every time you kick the tires and light the
fire in a single-engine, single-seat Century Series jet, it can kill
you--all by itself without help from an enemy."


Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here. I graduated from
college in 1968 in Arizona. I had always wanted to fly jets so from time to
time I applied for the AF Reserves and ANG prior to graduation and once they
found I was physically and mentally qualified to go to flight school, as well
as an engineer, I was informed they all had immediate vacancies. Ultimately I
went through AFROTC and went on to learn how to fly. Probably 5% or so of my
graduating class were ANG or AFR - I ended up taking an F-4. Slots coming down
to graduates included ADC F101s among other non SEA assignments. I had and
have no political pull whatever and I could have just as easily taken an
ANG/AFR slot prior to my college graduation so I don't feel Bush hard to try
very hard to get an F-102.

Even after I finished F-4 in 69 school several of us in my class ended up in
northern Japan instead of SEA including one guy who later became a backseat ace
after getting a SEA tour in 1972..

So please stop reading more into this than there probably was. Don't just
assume that because the guy got an ANG fighter slot and ddn't go to SEA, he
only did so because of his connections. Others were in the same boat through
no choice of their own.

Ron July 9th 04 03:37 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 7/9/2004 1:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:


A lot more dangerous over enemy territory than over Texas. Believe me. I
have
flown over both.


What is your opinion of someone who gets a pilot slot in the guard, as
opposed
to someone who enters active duty infantry or naval forces, in the present
day.




Ron
PA-31T Cheyenne II
Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
Pune, India


I'm too much of a coward for the infantry. I'd rather take my chances in the
flak over Germany.




I was just wondering if you would still have the same disdain for someone who
does it now


Ron
PA-31T Cheyenne II
Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
Pune, India


ian maclure July 10th 04 01:27 AM

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:53:48 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
aircraft"! Were they really?


Compared to flying F-105's to Route Package Six, they were very safe when
compared to flying an F-102 over Houston.


Non-responsive.

Absent the folks shooting at you and the fact that Air Intercept
is usually a regime thats less hazardous inherently than moving
mud, both are equally hazardous.

High powered jets will kill you for any number of seemingly
minor lapses in concentration, judgement, or luck.

And things like "Route Package Six" were part of the problem in
Vietnam. Why fergawdsake, set up predictable in/out routes for
raids. Apparently this is what happened for a long time.
Meant the NVA could set up their SAMs and AAA along those routes
and concentrate their fire.

IBM

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
The Worlds Uncensored News Source


Krztalizer July 10th 04 01:46 AM

And things like "Route Package Six" were part of the problem in
Vietnam. Why fergawdsake, set up predictable in/out routes for
raids. Apparently this is what happened for a long time.
Meant the NVA could set up their SAMs and AAA along those routes
and concentrate their fire.


Mosquito bombers en route to Berlin in 44-45 had set approach routes, well
known to aircrews and flak gunners alike. The three routes were so well
travelled that even the Jerries referred to approaching bogies as "stranger on
(train) Platform 3". Anti-Mosquito units were deliberately stationed on top of
the three arriving "railroad" routes...

Glad to see we learned from that little mistake...

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose -an- engine, not -the- engine.


JohnČ]† †††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† July 10th 04 02:01 AM

In article , ian maclure
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 05:42:01 -0400, Cub Driver wrote:


What is your opinion of someone who gets a pilot slot in the guard, as
opposed
to someone who enters active duty infantry or naval forces, in the present
day.


Smart man!

(This comes from one who went through infantry basic at Fort Dix.)


Comes down to liking or not liking being perpetually tired,
cold, hungry, and bug bit.
Given the choice I think I'd pass on the infantry.
And besides active duty implies you may be interested in a
career. The Guard fills an important role for those who aren't
interested in a career but still want to be a soldier.


Being in the Infantry means keeping a pair of wet socks in the
refrigerator so that when you finally get home you can put them on and
be comfortable.

Got the Tee-Shirt, Benning School for Boys, 1968.

John

WalterM140 July 10th 04 03:10 AM

Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here. I graduated
from
college in 1968 in Arizona.


Did you go to Officer Candidates School?

Bush 43 did not.


Walt



ArtKramr July 10th 04 04:22 AM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/9/2004 7:10 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here. I graduated
from
college in 1968 in Arizona.


Did you go to Officer Candidates School?

Bush 43 did not.


Walt


A guy could work up a perspiration at OCS.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


B2431 July 10th 04 05:42 AM

From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/9/2004 9:10 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here. I graduated
from
college in 1968 in Arizona.


Did you go to Officer Candidates School?

Bush 43 did not.


Walt


Probably not since OCS is Army, not Air Force.

Next you will be telling us he never went to UPT either.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

D. Strang July 10th 04 06:29 AM

"ArtKramr" wrote

A guy could work up a perspiration at OCS.


I've been to OCS, and I've served two tours in combat, once as an enlisted man,
and once as a Lt. I can tell you that OCS is worth the time. When you enter a
ground battle with a bunch of teenagers, you better have taken the drill at OCS
to heart. OCS is a leadership school. Someone who rode around in an airplane
wouldn't know the complexity of herding 40 to 80 men to their certain death to
win a battle.

The one thing I can say about Bush, is that he was never a communist. I can't
say the same about JFKerry. I don't vote for communists, pinko's, or listen much
to people like you who do.

Now go cash your welfare check, while the rest of us are productive in life.



Cub Driver July 10th 04 10:55 AM


High powered jets will kill you for any number of seemingly
minor lapses in concentration, judgement, or luck.


I have huge respect for a 65 hp, high wing, 39 mph stall speed J-3
Piper Cub. Any airplane can kill you, though the Cub is probably the
least effective pilot-killer in the business.

Crikey, only three weeks ago I was tying it down, and the dang thang
put me in the emergency room with seven stitches on the outside of my
scalp and a tied-off vein on the inside. ("Who would have thought the
old man had so much blood in him?")


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

ArtKramr July 10th 04 12:08 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: "D. Strang"
Date: 7/9/2004 10:29 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: [email protected]

"ArtKramr" wrote

A guy could work up a perspiration at OCS.


I've been to OCS, and I've served two tours in combat, once as an enlisted
man,
and once as a Lt. I can tell you that OCS is worth the time. When you enter
a
ground battle with a bunch of teenagers, you better have taken the drill at
OCS
to heart. OCS is a leadership school. Someone who rode around in an
airplane
wouldn't know the complexity of herding 40 to 80 men to their certain death
to
win a battle.

The one thing I can say about Bush, is that he was never a communist. I
can't
say the same about JFKerry. I don't vote for communists, pinko's, or listen
much
to people like you who do.

Now go cash your welfare check, while the rest of us are productive in life.



WOW ! You were a real war hero. I'm dazzled.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


WalterM140 July 10th 04 01:31 PM

Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here.

Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one problem.

Walt

Paul J. Adam July 10th 04 01:39 PM

In message , Cub Driver
writes
I have huge respect for a 65 hp, high wing, 39 mph stall speed J-3
Piper Cub. Any airplane can kill you, though the Cub is probably the
least effective pilot-killer in the business.

Crikey, only three weeks ago I was tying it down, and the dang thang
put me in the emergency room with seven stitches on the outside of my
scalp and a tied-off vein on the inside. ("Who would have thought the
old man had so much blood in him?")


Ouch! Hope it's healing well.

What happened? Did your scalp lose an argument with the prop?

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

D. Strang July 10th 04 01:52 PM

"WalterM140" wrote
Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here.


Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one problem.


JFKerry skipped out of his last 8 months in the war zone (after receiving three
scratches in the line of duty).



D. Strang July 10th 04 01:55 PM

"ArtKramr" wrote

WOW ! You were a real war hero. I'm dazzled.


As you should be.



WalterM140 July 10th 04 03:37 PM

Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here. I graduated
from
college in 1968 in Arizona.


Did you go to Officer Candidates School?

Bush 43 did not.


Walt


A guy could work up a perspiration at OCS.


Some of these people want to say Bush got no special treatment, but I don't
know of any one who ever (at least since WWII) who got lieutenant's bars
without going through OCS or some sort of officer qualification program. Bush
went through a six week basic air man's course, and then got a commission.

I think that Gore's father and Bush's father both had the same idea in mind in
the '60's. If their sons were going to have political aspirations, they had to
serve honorably. Gore did go to Viet Nam and as far as I know, completely his
service honorably and completely. He got a cushy job, so be it. But Bush DID
NOT complete his service honorably - his dad made sure that the records
reflected honorable service, but unfortunately for the Bushies, there is this
one pesky document that shows a conclusive 16 month break in Bush's service.

Hopefully, more will be made of this in the coming months. Because unlike Gore
-or- Clinton, Senator Kerry served with distinction.

Walt

WalterM140 July 10th 04 03:38 PM

The one thing I can say about Bush, is that he was never a communist. I
can't
say the same about JFKerry. I don't vote for communists, pinko's, or listen
much
to people like you who do.


Kerry is a decorated WIA veteran. He's not a communist. Step back from the
Republican Party Kool-aid.

Walt

WalterM140 July 10th 04 03:41 PM

Probably not since OCS is Army, not Air Force.

Next you will be telling us he never went to UPT either.


Did not/does not the Air Force have some sort of equivalent to OCS? One that
prospective second lieutenants go through?

Walt

WalterM140 July 10th 04 03:45 PM

Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here.

Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one

problem.

JFKerry skipped out of his last 8 months in the war zone (after receiving
three
scratches in the line of duty).


Senator Kerry is a decorated veteran.

Bush skipped the last two years of his commitment.

Walt

B2431 July 10th 04 04:17 PM

From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/10/2004 9:41 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Probably not since OCS is Army, not Air Force.

Next you will be telling us he never went to UPT either.


Did not/does not the Air Force have some sort of equivalent to OCS? One that
prospective second lieutenants go through?

Walt


Sure, it's OTS. Does it matter how Bush got his butter bars? The fact remains
he did.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Steven P. McNicoll July 10th 04 04:38 PM


"B2431" wrote in message
...

Sure, it's OTS. Does it matter how Bush got his butter bars? The fact

remains
he did.


Yes, and he got them the same way other ANG pilots got them.



Steven P. McNicoll July 10th 04 04:39 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one

problem.


The record indicates you're wrong. Again.



Steven P. McNicoll July 10th 04 04:40 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Senator Kerry is a decorated veteran.


Yes, he earned some of his decorations. Nobody disputes that.



Bush skipped the last two years of his commitment.


The record indicates otherwise.



Ed Rasimus July 10th 04 04:58 PM

On 10 Jul 2004 14:37:31 GMT, (WalterM140) wrote:

Some of these people want to say Bush got no special treatment, but I don't
know of any one who ever (at least since WWII) who got lieutenant's bars
without going through OCS or some sort of officer qualification program. Bush
went through a six week basic air man's course, and then got a commission.


The "six week basic air man's (sic) course" is OTS. The President did
what every other ANG input to USAF UPT does. He got his commission
through OTS. You might also use the correct terminology while spouting
your propaganda. The commissioning course is Officer Training School,
not Officer Training School which was the term during WW II for Army
"90 day wonders".

And, you might look into "direct commissioning" and expand your
knowledge base. While it doesn't apply to line officers, the special
components such as Medical Corps, JAG, BEE, etc. can receive direct
commissions. Ever wonder why you never met an active duty military
medical doctor in the grade of Lt?

I think that Gore's father and Bush's father both had the same idea in mind in
the '60's. If their sons were going to have political aspirations, they had to
serve honorably. Gore did go to Viet Nam and as far as I know, completely his
service honorably and completely.


Ah, the ol' "as far as I know" escape clause. Well, after today, you
can know--Gore served 151 days of a 360 day "combat tour". He has used
the statement that "I went because if I didn't, someone else would
have had to serve in my place." A noble sentiment, but the fact is
that someone else did have to serve to complete his curtailed tour.

One might also note the tour length for John Kerry. Do we see a trend
among political candidates to "fill the square" then leave?

He got a cushy job, so be it. But Bush DID
NOT complete his service honorably - his dad made sure that the records
reflected honorable service, but unfortunately for the Bushies, there is this
one pesky document that shows a conclusive 16 month break in Bush's service.


Repeat, repeat, repeat and eventually the "Big Lie" is accepted as
truth. After 4 and a half years of a six year commitment, the
President took a temporary duty attachment to Alabama and then
accepted an "early out" as did many excess members of the active and
reserve forces at the end of the Vietnam War. You continue to assert
"dad made sure" but GHWB would hardly have the clout in '73 to
influence record falsification.

Hopefully, more will be made of this in the coming months. Because unlike Gore
-or- Clinton, Senator Kerry served with distinction.


Must be a typo there? Watch through the summer as more and more
Vietnam era vets join the 124 Swift boat commanders who have already
come forward to offer comment from a first-person perspective on
Senator Kerry's self-service.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

WalterM140 July 10th 04 05:04 PM

Sure, it's OTS. Does it matter how Bush got his butter bars? The fact
remains
he did.


Yes, and he got them the same way other ANG pilots got them.


ANG pilots were direct commissioned? All of them?



Walt

Ed Rasimus July 10th 04 05:05 PM

On 10 Jul 2004 00:27:24 GMT, "ian maclure" wrote:

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:53:48 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
aircraft"! Were they really?


Compared to flying F-105's to Route Package Six, they were very safe when
compared to flying an F-102 over Houston.


Nice of Walt to provide us a comment about driving 105's to RP VI.
But, flying Deuces day or night, in any kind of weather, mostly out
over the Gulf in a cockpit you could barely see out of and with an
under-powered J-57 doing the pushing was not a piece of cake.

Non-responsive.

Absent the folks shooting at you and the fact that Air Intercept
is usually a regime thats less hazardous inherently than moving
mud, both are equally hazardous.

High powered jets will kill you for any number of seemingly
minor lapses in concentration, judgement, or luck.

And things like "Route Package Six" were part of the problem in
Vietnam. Why fergawdsake, set up predictable in/out routes for
raids. Apparently this is what happened for a long time.
Meant the NVA could set up their SAMs and AAA along those routes
and concentrate their fire.


Willy Sutton was asked why he robbed banks. "That's where the money
is" was his answer. Why did we us the routes we did? Because they led
to the targets. NVN is a small country. The targets of meaning are
clustered in a smaller area of flat land and coastal plains. If you
start from A and go to B, there are only so many ways to get there. In
the days before GPS, visual nav means finding landmarks like Yen Bai,
the "dog pecker", Thud Ridge, Phantom Ridge and the "porkchop" to use
as pilotage checkpoints.

There were a lot of variations within the theme. We could get to Hanoi
from Thud Ridge, crossing from Laos and back out via Laos; or from
Laos and out to the Gulf; or from the Gulf and back out feet wet; or
from the Gulf and out via Laos. But, eventually you have to get over
the target and that's where the defenses are.



IBM

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Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8


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