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Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
To put it in perspective, here are 9 ways Bush got favored treatment in the
service due to his political connections (he was then son of a Congressman and grandson of a former Senator): 1) He got into the Guard by pulling strings, avoiding the year and a half waiting list; http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#got in 2) He took a 2-month vacation in Florida after just 8 weeks, (1 of 3 leaves), to work on a political campaign; http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#firstleave 3) Bush skipped Officer Candidate School and got a special commission as a 2nd Lieutenant, without qualifications; http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#2ndLt 4) He was assigned to a safe plane (being phased out of active service), the F-102 ; http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#f102 5) During flight school, he was flown on a government jet to Washington for a date with President Nixon's daughter Tricia ; http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#date 6) Bush got an illegal transfer (later overruled) to a base with no work; http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#moreleave 7) He simply didn't show up for a YEAR, AWOL with no penalty; http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#AWOL 8) George W. skipped all his medical exams after they started drug tests, and was removed from flight status; http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#drugtest 9) He ended his service 10 months early to go to Harvard Business School; http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#discharge To put it in perspective, here are 9 ways Bush got favored treatment in the service due to his political connections (he was then son of a Congressman and grandson of a former Senator): 1) He got into the Guard by pulling strings, avoiding the year and a half waiting list; http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#got in 2) He took a 2-month vacation in Florida after just 8 weeks, (1 of 3 leaves), to work on a political campaign; http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#firstleave 3) Bush skipped Officer Candidate School and got a special commission as a 2nd Lieutenant, without qualifications; http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#2ndLt 4) He was assigned to a safe plane (being phased out of active service), the F-102 ; http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#f102 5) During flight school, he was flown on a government jet to Washington for a date with President Nixon's daughter Tricia ; http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#date 6) Bush got an illegal transfer (later overruled) to a base with no work; http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#moreleave 7) He simply didn't show up for a YEAR, AWOL with no penalty; http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#AWOL 8) George W. skipped all his medical exams after they started drug tests, and was removed from flight status; http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#drugtest 9) He ended his service 10 months early to go to Harvard Business School; http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#discharge I got a link not found message. Someone may have hacked the site. That's what they've done to michaelmoore.com also. But good work. Walt |
I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
aircraft"! Were they really? v/r Gordon |
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They were so "safe" that the design was redesigned into the F106 to fix all
the problems. MikeT |
"miket6065" wrote in
om: They were so "safe" that the design was redesigned into the F106 to fix all the problems. Safety wasn't the problem. Drag was. The F-102 was supposed to be a supersonic aircraft but wasn't good for much beyond Mach 1. Area ruling and an increase in power gave us the F-106, easily capable of Mach 2. IBM __________________________________________________ _____________________________ Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com The Worlds Uncensored News Source |
"Ian MacLure" wrote in message ... Safety wasn't the problem. Drag was. The F-102 was supposed to be a supersonic aircraft but wasn't good for much beyond Mach 1. That would make it a supersonic aircraft. Area ruling and an increase in power gave us the F-106, easily capable of Mach 2. The F-102A was area ruled. |
Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Ian MacLure Date: 7/8/2004 7:34 PM Pacific Standard Time (Krztalizer) wrote in : I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe aircraft"! Were they really? Probably no more or less than any high performance jet a/c. Flying fighters is inherently a hazardous occupation. IBM A lot more dangerous over enemy territory than over Texas. Believe me. I have flown over both. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
A lot more dangerous over enemy territory than over Texas. Believe me. I
have flown over both. What is your opinion of someone who gets a pilot slot in the guard, as opposed to someone who enters active duty infantry or naval forces, in the present day. Ron PA-31T Cheyenne II Maharashtra Weather Modification Program Pune, India |
Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: 362436 (Ron) Date: 7/8/2004 9:17 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: A lot more dangerous over enemy territory than over Texas. Believe me. I have flown over both. What is your opinion of someone who gets a pilot slot in the guard, as opposed to someone who enters active duty infantry or naval forces, in the present day. Ron PA-31T Cheyenne II Maharashtra Weather Modification Program Pune, India I'm too much of a coward for the infantry. I'd rather take my chances in the flak over Germany. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe aircraft"! Were they really? As Ed Rasimus has said: "Every time you kick the tires and light the fire in a single-engine, single-seat Century Series jet, it can kill you--all by itself without help from an enemy." www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm There is a page by Walt BJ (based on his posts on this newsgroup) at http://www.warbirdforum.com/waltbj.htm all the best -- Dan Ford email: (put Cubdriver in subject line) The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org |
What is your opinion of someone who gets a pilot slot in the guard, as opposed to someone who enters active duty infantry or naval forces, in the present day. Smart man! (This comes from one who went through infantry basic at Fort Dix.) all the best -- Dan Ford email: (put Cubdriver in subject line) The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org |
I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
aircraft"! Were they really? Compared to flying F-105's to Route Package Six, they were very safe when compared to flying an F-102 over Houston. Walt |
Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (WalterM140) Date: 7/9/2004 3:53 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe aircraft"! Were they really? Compared to flying F-105's to Route Package Six, they were very safe when compared to flying an F-102 over Houston. Walt There was no flak over Houston. Well hardly any. ((:-)) Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Cub Driver Date: 7/9/2004 2:40 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe aircraft"! Were they really? As Ed Rasimus has said: "Every time you kick the tires and light the fire in a single-engine, single-seat Century Series jet, it can kill you--all by itself without help from an enemy." Yeah right. It's the kicking the tires that will get you every time. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (ArtKramr) Date: 7/9/2004 10:13 AM Eastern Standard Time Message-id: Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam From: Cub Driver Date: 7/9/2004 2:40 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe aircraft"! Were they really? As Ed Rasimus has said: "Every time you kick the tires and light the fire in a single-engine, single-seat Century Series jet, it can kill you--all by itself without help from an enemy." Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here. I graduated from college in 1968 in Arizona. I had always wanted to fly jets so from time to time I applied for the AF Reserves and ANG prior to graduation and once they found I was physically and mentally qualified to go to flight school, as well as an engineer, I was informed they all had immediate vacancies. Ultimately I went through AFROTC and went on to learn how to fly. Probably 5% or so of my graduating class were ANG or AFR - I ended up taking an F-4. Slots coming down to graduates included ADC F101s among other non SEA assignments. I had and have no political pull whatever and I could have just as easily taken an ANG/AFR slot prior to my college graduation so I don't feel Bush hard to try very hard to get an F-102. Even after I finished F-4 in 69 school several of us in my class ended up in northern Japan instead of SEA including one guy who later became a backseat ace after getting a SEA tour in 1972.. So please stop reading more into this than there probably was. Don't just assume that because the guy got an ANG fighter slot and ddn't go to SEA, he only did so because of his connections. Others were in the same boat through no choice of their own. |
Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (ArtKramr) Date: 7/9/2004 1:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: A lot more dangerous over enemy territory than over Texas. Believe me. I have flown over both. What is your opinion of someone who gets a pilot slot in the guard, as opposed to someone who enters active duty infantry or naval forces, in the present day. Ron PA-31T Cheyenne II Maharashtra Weather Modification Program Pune, India I'm too much of a coward for the infantry. I'd rather take my chances in the flak over Germany. I was just wondering if you would still have the same disdain for someone who does it now Ron PA-31T Cheyenne II Maharashtra Weather Modification Program Pune, India |
On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:53:48 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:
I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe aircraft"! Were they really? Compared to flying F-105's to Route Package Six, they were very safe when compared to flying an F-102 over Houston. Non-responsive. Absent the folks shooting at you and the fact that Air Intercept is usually a regime thats less hazardous inherently than moving mud, both are equally hazardous. High powered jets will kill you for any number of seemingly minor lapses in concentration, judgement, or luck. And things like "Route Package Six" were part of the problem in Vietnam. Why fergawdsake, set up predictable in/out routes for raids. Apparently this is what happened for a long time. Meant the NVA could set up their SAMs and AAA along those routes and concentrate their fire. IBM __________________________________________________ _____________________________ Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com The Worlds Uncensored News Source |
And things like "Route Package Six" were part of the problem in
Vietnam. Why fergawdsake, set up predictable in/out routes for raids. Apparently this is what happened for a long time. Meant the NVA could set up their SAMs and AAA along those routes and concentrate their fire. Mosquito bombers en route to Berlin in 44-45 had set approach routes, well known to aircrews and flak gunners alike. The three routes were so well travelled that even the Jerries referred to approaching bogies as "stranger on (train) Platform 3". Anti-Mosquito units were deliberately stationed on top of the three arriving "railroad" routes... Glad to see we learned from that little mistake... v/r Gordon ====(A+C==== USN SAR Its always better to lose -an- engine, not -the- engine. |
In article , ian maclure
wrote: On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 05:42:01 -0400, Cub Driver wrote: What is your opinion of someone who gets a pilot slot in the guard, as opposed to someone who enters active duty infantry or naval forces, in the present day. Smart man! (This comes from one who went through infantry basic at Fort Dix.) Comes down to liking or not liking being perpetually tired, cold, hungry, and bug bit. Given the choice I think I'd pass on the infantry. And besides active duty implies you may be interested in a career. The Guard fills an important role for those who aren't interested in a career but still want to be a soldier. Being in the Infantry means keeping a pair of wet socks in the refrigerator so that when you finally get home you can put them on and be comfortable. Got the Tee-Shirt, Benning School for Boys, 1968. John |
Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here. I graduated
from college in 1968 in Arizona. Did you go to Officer Candidates School? Bush 43 did not. Walt |
Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (WalterM140) Date: 7/9/2004 7:10 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here. I graduated from college in 1968 in Arizona. Did you go to Officer Candidates School? Bush 43 did not. Walt A guy could work up a perspiration at OCS. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
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"ArtKramr" wrote
A guy could work up a perspiration at OCS. I've been to OCS, and I've served two tours in combat, once as an enlisted man, and once as a Lt. I can tell you that OCS is worth the time. When you enter a ground battle with a bunch of teenagers, you better have taken the drill at OCS to heart. OCS is a leadership school. Someone who rode around in an airplane wouldn't know the complexity of herding 40 to 80 men to their certain death to win a battle. The one thing I can say about Bush, is that he was never a communist. I can't say the same about JFKerry. I don't vote for communists, pinko's, or listen much to people like you who do. Now go cash your welfare check, while the rest of us are productive in life. |
High powered jets will kill you for any number of seemingly minor lapses in concentration, judgement, or luck. I have huge respect for a 65 hp, high wing, 39 mph stall speed J-3 Piper Cub. Any airplane can kill you, though the Cub is probably the least effective pilot-killer in the business. Crikey, only three weeks ago I was tying it down, and the dang thang put me in the emergency room with seven stitches on the outside of my scalp and a tied-off vein on the inside. ("Who would have thought the old man had so much blood in him?") all the best -- Dan Ford email: (put Cubdriver in subject line) The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org |
Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here.
Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one problem. Walt |
In message , Cub Driver
writes I have huge respect for a 65 hp, high wing, 39 mph stall speed J-3 Piper Cub. Any airplane can kill you, though the Cub is probably the least effective pilot-killer in the business. Crikey, only three weeks ago I was tying it down, and the dang thang put me in the emergency room with seven stitches on the outside of my scalp and a tied-off vein on the inside. ("Who would have thought the old man had so much blood in him?") Ouch! Hope it's healing well. What happened? Did your scalp lose an argument with the prop? -- He thinks too much: such men are dangerous. Julius Caesar I:2 Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk |
"WalterM140" wrote
Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here. Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one problem. JFKerry skipped out of his last 8 months in the war zone (after receiving three scratches in the line of duty). |
"ArtKramr" wrote
WOW ! You were a real war hero. I'm dazzled. As you should be. |
Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here. I graduated
from college in 1968 in Arizona. Did you go to Officer Candidates School? Bush 43 did not. Walt A guy could work up a perspiration at OCS. Some of these people want to say Bush got no special treatment, but I don't know of any one who ever (at least since WWII) who got lieutenant's bars without going through OCS or some sort of officer qualification program. Bush went through a six week basic air man's course, and then got a commission. I think that Gore's father and Bush's father both had the same idea in mind in the '60's. If their sons were going to have political aspirations, they had to serve honorably. Gore did go to Viet Nam and as far as I know, completely his service honorably and completely. He got a cushy job, so be it. But Bush DID NOT complete his service honorably - his dad made sure that the records reflected honorable service, but unfortunately for the Bushies, there is this one pesky document that shows a conclusive 16 month break in Bush's service. Hopefully, more will be made of this in the coming months. Because unlike Gore -or- Clinton, Senator Kerry served with distinction. Walt |
The one thing I can say about Bush, is that he was never a communist. I
can't say the same about JFKerry. I don't vote for communists, pinko's, or listen much to people like you who do. Kerry is a decorated WIA veteran. He's not a communist. Step back from the Republican Party Kool-aid. Walt |
Probably not since OCS is Army, not Air Force.
Next you will be telling us he never went to UPT either. Did not/does not the Air Force have some sort of equivalent to OCS? One that prospective second lieutenants go through? Walt |
Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here.
Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one problem. JFKerry skipped out of his last 8 months in the war zone (after receiving three scratches in the line of duty). Senator Kerry is a decorated veteran. Bush skipped the last two years of his commitment. Walt |
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"B2431" wrote in message ... Sure, it's OTS. Does it matter how Bush got his butter bars? The fact remains he did. Yes, and he got them the same way other ANG pilots got them. |
"WalterM140" wrote in message ... Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one problem. The record indicates you're wrong. Again. |
"WalterM140" wrote in message ... Senator Kerry is a decorated veteran. Yes, he earned some of his decorations. Nobody disputes that. Bush skipped the last two years of his commitment. The record indicates otherwise. |
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Sure, it's OTS. Does it matter how Bush got his butter bars? The fact
remains he did. Yes, and he got them the same way other ANG pilots got them. ANG pilots were direct commissioned? All of them? Walt |
On 10 Jul 2004 00:27:24 GMT, "ian maclure" wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:53:48 +0000, WalterM140 wrote: I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe aircraft"! Were they really? Compared to flying F-105's to Route Package Six, they were very safe when compared to flying an F-102 over Houston. Nice of Walt to provide us a comment about driving 105's to RP VI. But, flying Deuces day or night, in any kind of weather, mostly out over the Gulf in a cockpit you could barely see out of and with an under-powered J-57 doing the pushing was not a piece of cake. Non-responsive. Absent the folks shooting at you and the fact that Air Intercept is usually a regime thats less hazardous inherently than moving mud, both are equally hazardous. High powered jets will kill you for any number of seemingly minor lapses in concentration, judgement, or luck. And things like "Route Package Six" were part of the problem in Vietnam. Why fergawdsake, set up predictable in/out routes for raids. Apparently this is what happened for a long time. Meant the NVA could set up their SAMs and AAA along those routes and concentrate their fire. Willy Sutton was asked why he robbed banks. "That's where the money is" was his answer. Why did we us the routes we did? Because they led to the targets. NVN is a small country. The targets of meaning are clustered in a smaller area of flat land and coastal plains. If you start from A and go to B, there are only so many ways to get there. In the days before GPS, visual nav means finding landmarks like Yen Bai, the "dog pecker", Thud Ridge, Phantom Ridge and the "porkchop" to use as pilotage checkpoints. There were a lot of variations within the theme. We could get to Hanoi from Thud Ridge, crossing from Laos and back out via Laos; or from Laos and out to the Gulf; or from the Gulf and back out feet wet; or from the Gulf and out via Laos. But, eventually you have to get over the target and that's where the defenses are. IBM _________________________________________________ ______________________________ Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com The Worlds Uncensored News Source Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 |
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