AviationBanter

AviationBanter (http://www.aviationbanter.com/index.php)
-   Military Aviation (http://www.aviationbanter.com/forumdisplay.php?f=13)
-   -   Audio recording of RAF Lancaster under nightfighter attack (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=6499)

Stolly September 27th 03 12:55 AM

Audio recording of RAF Lancaster under nightfighter attack
 
As far as i know this is authentic.

Does anyone know anymore about this ?

Is it indeed authentic ?

http://www.stolly.org.uk/lanc.wav

Its a 400k wav file.



Brian September 27th 03 07:39 AM

Sounds fake - too calm - even considering the Brit resolve.


"Stolly" wrote in message
...
As far as i know this is authentic.

Does anyone know anymore about this ?

Is it indeed authentic ?

http://www.stolly.org.uk/lanc.wav

Its a 400k wav file.





Richard Brooks September 27th 03 10:53 AM

Stolly wrote:
As far as i know this is authentic.

Does anyone know anymore about this ?

Is it indeed authentic ?

http://www.stolly.org.uk/lanc.wav

Its a 400k wav file.


Dunno but there is an archiving service by the IWM and they'll fill a CD-R
with stuff you ask for, for about a tenner which is very cheap.

All that wartime recording by in-the-field news gatherers can be yours for
little money!


Richard.



Stolly September 27th 03 01:45 PM

really, how do you go about arranging that, can you do it via the web or do
you have to go there ?
"Richard Brooks" wrote in message
...
Stolly wrote:
As far as i know this is authentic.

Does anyone know anymore about this ?

Is it indeed authentic ?

http://www.stolly.org.uk/lanc.wav

Its a 400k wav file.


Dunno but there is an archiving service by the IWM and they'll fill a CD-R
with stuff you ask for, for about a tenner which is very cheap.

All that wartime recording by in-the-field news gatherers can be yours for
little money!


Richard.





Stolly September 27th 03 02:06 PM

I was just having a discussion with my father about this the other day.

He was fighting with the British Army in Malaya while the US was in Vietnam
around 1965 and said that the contrast between the radio discipline used by
the RAF Hunter pilots on ground attack missions was like the difference
between night and day compared to the US pilots flying similar missions over
Vietnam.

Malaya was close enough to pick up the US comms coming out of Vietnam.

He said "Our Hunter pilots were Target 2 miles. Diving now, Tally ho" (yes
they actually said Tally ho) "the Yanks were shouting and swearing about
ground fire this and f*cking that"

So the discipline on the recording is in character, according to my father.


"Brian" wrote in message
et...
Sounds fake - too calm - even considering the Brit resolve.


"Stolly" wrote in message
...
As far as i know this is authentic.

Does anyone know anymore about this ?

Is it indeed authentic ?

http://www.stolly.org.uk/lanc.wav

Its a 400k wav file.







Richard Brooks September 27th 03 03:10 PM

Stolly wrote:
really, how do you go about arranging that, can you do it via the web
or do you have to go there ?


Well, it was all because I missed a copy of The Golden Hour LP entitled
Aeroplanes of World War II which I had lent to someone and never got it
back, you know the score.

Anyway, as the source of the LP was from IWM recordins I telephoned the
Imperial War Museum and a very nice woman told me that they had a service
where you could mention the stuff you wanted and they'd slap half an hours
stuff on a CD for a fiver or an hours stuff for a tenner. Or you could go
there and listen through then select what you want.

I've got some leaflet in a folder somewhere and shall dig it out for you,


Richard.




"Richard Brooks" wrote in
message ...
Stolly wrote:
As far as i know this is authentic.

Does anyone know anymore about this ?

Is it indeed authentic ?

http://www.stolly.org.uk/lanc.wav

Its a 400k wav file.


Dunno but there is an archiving service by the IWM and they'll fill
a CD-R with stuff you ask for, for about a tenner which is very
cheap.

All that wartime recording by in-the-field news gatherers can be
yours for little money!


Richard.




Richard Brooks September 27th 03 03:44 PM

Stolly wrote:
really, how do you go about arranging that, can you do it via the web
or do you have to go there ?


I wonder if the last paragaph is what it refers to ?
http://www.iwm.org.uk/shopping/publicate.htm

Anyway, I can't find the leaflet right now but on a yellow Post-It note I've
found IWM 0207 416 5000 Sound Records - Rosemary.

Richard.


"Richard Brooks" wrote in
message ...
Stolly wrote:
As far as i know this is authentic.

Does anyone know anymore about this ?

Is it indeed authentic ?

http://www.stolly.org.uk/lanc.wav

Its a 400k wav file.


Dunno but there is an archiving service by the IWM and they'll fill
a CD-R with stuff you ask for, for about a tenner which is very
cheap.

All that wartime recording by in-the-field news gatherers can be
yours for little money!


Richard.




Richard Brooks September 27th 03 03:58 PM

Richard Brooks wrote:
Stolly wrote:
really, how do you go about arranging that, can you do it via the web
or do you have to go there ?


Well, it was all because I missed a copy of The Golden Hour LP
entitled Aeroplanes of World War II which I had lent to someone and
never got it back, you know the score.


I should have stated correctly "Sounds of the Aeroplane at War 1939 - 1945"

If you can grab a copy of that you'll be very lucky. I've burned onto CD my
own copy from some crappy old tapes that a guy was selling at Biggin Hill
some years back and he got them from the BBC archives when they were
throwing their records out.

Richard.


Richard.




Dave Holford September 27th 03 04:10 PM



Stolly wrote:

As far as i know this is authentic.

Does anyone know anymore about this ?

Is it indeed authentic ?

http://www.stolly.org.uk/lanc.wav

Its a 400k wav file.



How was this recording made?

Dave

M. J. Powell September 27th 03 07:28 PM

In message , Richard Brooks
writes
Stolly wrote:
really, how do you go about arranging that, can you do it via the web
or do you have to go there ?


I wonder if the last paragaph is what it refers to ?
http://www.iwm.org.uk/shopping/publicate.htm

Anyway, I can't find the leaflet right now but on a yellow Post-It note I've
found IWM 0207 416 5000 Sound Records - Rosemary.

Richard.


"Richard Brooks" wrote in
message ...
Stolly wrote:
As far as i know this is authentic.

Does anyone know anymore about this ?

Is it indeed authentic ?

http://www.stolly.org.uk/lanc.wav

Its a 400k wav file.

Dunno but there is an archiving service by the IWM and they'll fill
a CD-R with stuff you ask for, for about a tenner which is very
cheap.

All that wartime recording by in-the-field news gatherers can be
yours for little money!


There was a famous recording made by Richard Dimbleby(?) in a Lancaster
over Germany.

The Germans were alleged to have broadcast live from a bomber over
London, but I don't think that would be in the IWM.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

Richard Brooks September 27th 03 08:20 PM

M. J. Powell wrote:
In message , Richard Brooks
writes
Stolly wrote:
really, how do you go about arranging that, can you do it via the
web
or do you have to go there ?


I wonder if the last paragaph is what it refers to ?
http://www.iwm.org.uk/shopping/publicate.htm

Anyway, I can't find the leaflet right now but on a yellow Post-It
note I've found IWM 0207 416 5000 Sound Records - Rosemary.

Richard.


"Richard Brooks" wrote in
message ...
Stolly wrote:
As far as i know this is authentic.

Does anyone know anymore about this ?

Is it indeed authentic ?

http://www.stolly.org.uk/lanc.wav

Its a 400k wav file.

Dunno but there is an archiving service by the IWM and they'll fill
a CD-R with stuff you ask for, for about a tenner which is very
cheap.

All that wartime recording by in-the-field news gatherers can be
yours for little money!


There was a famous recording made by Richard Dimbleby(?) in a
Lancaster
over Germany.

The Germans were alleged to have broadcast live from a bomber over
London, but I don't think that would be in the IWM.

Mike


Dunno but the record does have on side one, a sound track of a Do17 taxiing
and taking off, recorded internally. What a bloody awful noise that was.

The more interesting and the longest track is of a single Me109 starting up,
taking off and buzzing the recordist a couple of times, then there are
several pairs of Me109s taking off, same with He111s taking off and finally
the whole lot approaching from some distance away. All starts quiet with a
bird singing in the foreground then lots and lots of aircraft flying over
then all fades out. After a while the bird starts singing again. I think
the track is called "Bound for London."

Richard.



av8r September 27th 03 09:03 PM

Hi Brian

This whole thing stinks. Couple of points:

The Nav says half a minute to go..for what, the I.P. because later the
bomb aimer says the bombs going in about a minute. In the meantime
someone (the Nav?) is saying keep weaving.

The R.A.F. used the term Bomb Aimer NOT Bombardier. BTW, you never here
the Bomb Aimer say 'Bombs Gone'

There was no drone of engines in the background even with the pilot and
other crew members talking with O2 masks on you would have heard
something.

All the wartime R.C.A.F. and R.A.F. pilots I know, used individual names
of their crew versus crew position when calling them on the intercom.

The skipper asks the engineer to put the revs up. To what RPM?

The recording device would have been connected to the intercom system.
Only one person can talk at a time yet we here a number of the crew
cheering over the supposed shoot down of a unidentified Luftwaffe
aircraft. I don't think they had hot mikes back then.
Maybe our resident Lanc F/E Gord Beaman can answer that question.

How could the pilot see the aircraft going down, as it would be well
behind him by the time he says anything about it, even if the aircraft
had been shot down while making a head on attack.

There are other things that don't sound right but I'll leave it at that
for now.

Cheers...Chris










Stolly September 27th 03 11:39 PM

FYI with the help of a number of other people we have proved this recording
to be authenic.

"Wynford Vaughn Thomas did a trip to Berlin on 3 Sep 1943 to make the famous
BBC recording, broadcast in the Home Service on 4th September 1943 and many
times since, of a Lancaster crew on a bombing raid. This included the
shooting down of an attacking fighter"

Discussion thread here

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forum...pagenu mber=1

"av8r" wrote in message
...
Hi Brian

This whole thing stinks. Couple of points:

The Nav says half a minute to go..for what, the I.P. because later the
bomb aimer says the bombs going in about a minute. In the meantime
someone (the Nav?) is saying keep weaving.

The R.A.F. used the term Bomb Aimer NOT Bombardier. BTW, you never here
the Bomb Aimer say 'Bombs Gone'

There was no drone of engines in the background even with the pilot and
other crew members talking with O2 masks on you would have heard
something.

All the wartime R.C.A.F. and R.A.F. pilots I know, used individual names
of their crew versus crew position when calling them on the intercom.

The skipper asks the engineer to put the revs up. To what RPM?

The recording device would have been connected to the intercom system.
Only one person can talk at a time yet we here a number of the crew
cheering over the supposed shoot down of a unidentified Luftwaffe
aircraft. I don't think they had hot mikes back then.
Maybe our resident Lanc F/E Gord Beaman can answer that question.

How could the pilot see the aircraft going down, as it would be well
behind him by the time he says anything about it, even if the aircraft
had been shot down while making a head on attack.

There are other things that don't sound right but I'll leave it at that
for now.

Cheers...Chris












[email protected] September 28th 03 04:32 AM

av8r wrote:

There are other things that don't sound right but I'll leave it at that
for now.

Cheers...Chris


Well, I could be wrong of course but I doubt that it's real. As
Chris says it's too quiet. the bloody Lanc makes one hell of a
lot of noise and I remember the intercom being of poor quality
because of that and the poor headsets we used (HS-33 with
handheld T-17 carbon mikes). You can indeed hear several people
talking at once on any a/c intercom system that I've ever used
though but it's just too quiet on this one. Another thing is that
on any system that I've used (except for 'hot mics' on takeoff
and landing) you always hear the click as anyone pushes their mic
switch and the hiss of background noise while the mic is open.
There was none of this...all in all it was too quiet in my
estimation...I think it was faked. I gotta add though that the MG
sounded kinda real to me...
--

-Gord.

Stolly September 28th 03 10:16 AM

ITS REAL :)

We have the name of the aircraft involved, its Squadron, the name of the BBC
guys that made the recording, a photo of them standing outside the aircraft
in question before the mission, pictures of the equipment they used, and the
date of the incident.

""Wynford Vaughn Thomas did a trip to Berlin on 3 Sep 1943 to make the
famous
BBC recording, broadcast in the Home Service on 4th September 1943 and many
times since, of a Lancaster crew on a bombing raid. This included the
shooting down of an attacking fighter"

Seriously, read this thread. Proof is at the end of the second page. On
Page 3 you have the people who said it was not authentic admiting they were
wrong.

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forum...pagenu mber=1

ITS REAL :)

"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
av8r wrote:

There are other things that don't sound right but I'll leave it at that
for now.

Cheers...Chris


Well, I could be wrong of course but I doubt that it's real. As
Chris says it's too quiet. the bloody Lanc makes one hell of a
lot of noise and I remember the intercom being of poor quality
because of that and the poor headsets we used (HS-33 with
handheld T-17 carbon mikes). You can indeed hear several people
talking at once on any a/c intercom system that I've ever used
though but it's just too quiet on this one. Another thing is that
on any system that I've used (except for 'hot mics' on takeoff
and landing) you always hear the click as anyone pushes their mic
switch and the hiss of background noise while the mic is open.
There was none of this...all in all it was too quiet in my
estimation...I think it was faked. I gotta add though that the MG
sounded kinda real to me...
--

-Gord.




M. J. Powell September 28th 03 11:14 AM

In message , Stolly
writes
FYI with the help of a number of other people we have proved this recording
to be authenic.

"Wynford Vaughn Thomas did a trip to Berlin on 3 Sep 1943 to make the famous
BBC recording, broadcast in the Home Service on 4th September 1943 and many
times since, of a Lancaster crew on a bombing raid. This included the
shooting down of an attacking fighter"


That's the one that I remember, sorry for false attribution to Richard
D. I remember the tremor in WVT's voice and wondering whether it was
fear or the vibration of the aircraft.

Mike

Discussion thread here

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forum...readid=97116&p
erpage=50&pagenumber=1

"av8r" wrote in message
...
Hi Brian

This whole thing stinks. Couple of points:

The Nav says half a minute to go..for what, the I.P. because later the
bomb aimer says the bombs going in about a minute. In the meantime
someone (the Nav?) is saying keep weaving.

The R.A.F. used the term Bomb Aimer NOT Bombardier. BTW, you never here
the Bomb Aimer say 'Bombs Gone'

There was no drone of engines in the background even with the pilot and
other crew members talking with O2 masks on you would have heard
something.

All the wartime R.C.A.F. and R.A.F. pilots I know, used individual names
of their crew versus crew position when calling them on the intercom.

The skipper asks the engineer to put the revs up. To what RPM?

The recording device would have been connected to the intercom system.
Only one person can talk at a time yet we here a number of the crew
cheering over the supposed shoot down of a unidentified Luftwaffe
aircraft. I don't think they had hot mikes back then.
Maybe our resident Lanc F/E Gord Beaman can answer that question.

How could the pilot see the aircraft going down, as it would be well
behind him by the time he says anything about it, even if the aircraft
had been shot down while making a head on attack.

There are other things that don't sound right but I'll leave it at that
for now.

Cheers...Chris












--
M.J.Powell

M. J. Powell September 28th 03 11:20 AM

In message , "Gord
writes
av8r wrote:

There are other things that don't sound right but I'll leave it at that
for now.

Cheers...Chris


Well, I could be wrong of course but I doubt that it's real. As
Chris says it's too quiet. the bloody Lanc makes one hell of a
lot of noise and I remember the intercom being of poor quality
because of that and the poor headsets we used (HS-33 with
handheld T-17 carbon mikes).


I really can't remember any RAF a/c where hand-held mics were used. I've
seen them used in American films and thought how awkward they were.

You can indeed hear several people
talking at once on any a/c intercom system that I've ever used
though but it's just too quiet on this one. Another thing is that
on any system that I've used (except for 'hot mics' on takeoff
and landing) you always hear the click as anyone pushes their mic
switch and the hiss of background noise while the mic is open.


I don't remember any 'click' when the oxygen mask mic switch was used.
Some time early in the war the mic was changed from carbon to
moving-coil, using an extra amplifier in the intercom circuit.
Convention in my time was that only the pilot left his mic open all the
time, otherwise you got all the crew's breathing in your ears
continually.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

Stolly September 28th 03 12:45 PM

Do you know where i might be able to get hold of the whole recording ?

It would be fascinating to hear all of it.

"M. J. Powell" wrote in message
...
In message , Stolly
writes
FYI with the help of a number of other people we have proved this

recording
to be authenic.

"Wynford Vaughn Thomas did a trip to Berlin on 3 Sep 1943 to make the

famous
BBC recording, broadcast in the Home Service on 4th September 1943 and

many
times since, of a Lancaster crew on a bombing raid. This included the
shooting down of an attacking fighter"


That's the one that I remember, sorry for false attribution to Richard
D. I remember the tremor in WVT's voice and wondering whether it was
fear or the vibration of the aircraft.

Mike

Discussion thread here

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forum...readid=97116&p
erpage=50&pagenumber=1

"av8r" wrote in message
...
Hi Brian

This whole thing stinks. Couple of points:

The Nav says half a minute to go..for what, the I.P. because later the
bomb aimer says the bombs going in about a minute. In the meantime
someone (the Nav?) is saying keep weaving.

The R.A.F. used the term Bomb Aimer NOT Bombardier. BTW, you never

here
the Bomb Aimer say 'Bombs Gone'

There was no drone of engines in the background even with the pilot and
other crew members talking with O2 masks on you would have heard
something.

All the wartime R.C.A.F. and R.A.F. pilots I know, used individual

names
of their crew versus crew position when calling them on the intercom.

The skipper asks the engineer to put the revs up. To what RPM?

The recording device would have been connected to the intercom system.
Only one person can talk at a time yet we here a number of the crew
cheering over the supposed shoot down of a unidentified Luftwaffe
aircraft. I don't think they had hot mikes back then.
Maybe our resident Lanc F/E Gord Beaman can answer that question.

How could the pilot see the aircraft going down, as it would be well
behind him by the time he says anything about it, even if the aircraft
had been shot down while making a head on attack.

There are other things that don't sound right but I'll leave it at that
for now.

Cheers...Chris












--
M.J.Powell




Stolly September 28th 03 12:46 PM

Thanks

I will check this out.

"Richard Brooks" wrote in message
...
M. J. Powell wrote:
In message , Richard Brooks
writes
Stolly wrote:
really, how do you go about arranging that, can you do it via the
web
or do you have to go there ?

I wonder if the last paragaph is what it refers to ?
http://www.iwm.org.uk/shopping/publicate.htm

Anyway, I can't find the leaflet right now but on a yellow Post-It
note I've found IWM 0207 416 5000 Sound Records - Rosemary.

Richard.


"Richard Brooks" wrote in
message ...
Stolly wrote:
As far as i know this is authentic.

Does anyone know anymore about this ?

Is it indeed authentic ?

http://www.stolly.org.uk/lanc.wav

Its a 400k wav file.

Dunno but there is an archiving service by the IWM and they'll fill
a CD-R with stuff you ask for, for about a tenner which is very
cheap.

All that wartime recording by in-the-field news gatherers can be
yours for little money!


There was a famous recording made by Richard Dimbleby(?) in a
Lancaster
over Germany.

The Germans were alleged to have broadcast live from a bomber over
London, but I don't think that would be in the IWM.

Mike


Dunno but the record does have on side one, a sound track of a Do17

taxiing
and taking off, recorded internally. What a bloody awful noise that was.

The more interesting and the longest track is of a single Me109 starting

up,
taking off and buzzing the recordist a couple of times, then there are
several pairs of Me109s taking off, same with He111s taking off and

finally
the whole lot approaching from some distance away. All starts quiet with

a
bird singing in the foreground then lots and lots of aircraft flying over
then all fades out. After a while the bird starts singing again. I think
the track is called "Bound for London."

Richard.





av8r September 28th 03 05:15 PM

Hi Stolly

I'm still not convinced this is the real thing despite all the
testimonials otherwise. Why was the term 'Bombardier' used for
instance. Do you not think it could have been just a BBC studio
production for the folks back home who were starving for some positive
news in the night bomber campaign against Germany. It would have taken
very little effort to collect a crew and snap a few pix then pass it off
as the real deal.

Cheers...Chris


[email protected] September 28th 03 05:19 PM

"M. J. Powell" wrote:

I don't remember any 'click' when the oxygen mask mic switch was used.
Some time early in the war the mic was changed from carbon to
moving-coil, using an extra amplifier in the intercom circuit.
Convention in my time was that only the pilot left his mic open all the
time, otherwise you got all the crew's breathing in your ears
continually.

Mike


Could be Mike, but you mention RAF and WW2 era. The RCAF used the
Lancaster X Maritime Reconnance version in the early to mid
fifties which indeed did still have hand held carbon mics. They
were the T-17 type and being young curious types we 'dismantled'
one and saw the carbon granules in the little pocket in there. We
were in ASW service so hardly ever wore O2 masks but I remember
that they also had those small round mics imbedded in the rubber.

Actually any intercom system (that I've used) will exhibit that
distinctive click and the hiss of background noise while the mic
is open. I recall searching for a stuck mic switch on an Argus
with maybe 20 intercom stations.

We used hot mic for takeoff and landing for the Pilots and F/E on
the Argus for instant comms. The hiss was annoying and was often
not used for that reason.

The Lanc model that we used carried a 'wire recorder' for the
sonobuoys which could likely have been wired to the intercom so
that's not a big deal but it didn't sound real to me. Mind you
now, I left Lancs nearly 50 years ago but I remember a lot about
them because I was young then and impressionable and I'm pretty
sure that that recording is fake...it's just much too quiet, no
engine noise at all...they were hellishly LOUD...the commands
just didn't sound 'right'...mind you they were RAF but still...

My considered opinion...fake...
--

-Gord.

Tex Houston September 28th 03 05:26 PM


"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
The Lanc model that we used carried a 'wire recorder' for the
sonobuoys which could likely have been wired to the intercom so
that's not a big deal but it didn't sound real to me. Mind you
now, I left Lancs nearly 50 years ago but I remember a lot about
them because I was young then and impressionable and I'm pretty
sure that that recording is fake...it's just much too quiet, no
engine noise at all...they were hellishly LOUD...the commands
just didn't sound 'right'...mind you they were RAF but still...

My considered opinion...fake...
--

-Gord.


While filming a television show where we protested "It didn't happen that
way" and I got some advice to live by from the director. "There's real life
and then there's television."

Tex Houston



Stolly September 28th 03 08:12 PM

To the extent that they faked the people standing in front of the aircraft
for the photograph and had many people in on the conspiracy who took the
secret to their graves including a very well know BBC reporter ?

Come on, if you don't belive this after all the evidence from multiple
places then i'm suprised you actually believe anything.

We have the people involved, the date, the unit, the equipment, and even a
picture taken on the day with the aircraft in the background with the right
markings on and you choose not to believe it because you think that the
English don't use the word "Bombardier"

My father was a Bombardier in the Royal Artillery btw. That was his rank.

"av8r" wrote in message
...
Hi Stolly

I'm still not convinced this is the real thing despite all the
testimonials otherwise. Why was the term 'Bombardier' used for
instance. Do you not think it could have been just a BBC studio
production for the folks back home who were starving for some positive
news in the night bomber campaign against Germany. It would have taken
very little effort to collect a crew and snap a few pix then pass it off
as the real deal.

Cheers...Chris




M. J. Powell September 28th 03 08:41 PM

In message , "Gord
writes
"M. J. Powell" wrote:

I don't remember any 'click' when the oxygen mask mic switch was used.
Some time early in the war the mic was changed from carbon to
moving-coil, using an extra amplifier in the intercom circuit.
Convention in my time was that only the pilot left his mic open all the
time, otherwise you got all the crew's breathing in your ears
continually.

Mike


Could be Mike, but you mention RAF and WW2 era. The RCAF used the
Lancaster X Maritime Reconnance version in the early to mid
fifties which indeed did still have hand held carbon mics.


I am amazed! Even for low-level stuff where you didn't need the O2 the
need to occupy one hand with a mic seems very retrograde.

They
were the T-17 type and being young curious types we 'dismantled'
one and saw the carbon granules in the little pocket in there.


Yes, I remember seeing them on the surplus market in the late 40's.

We
were in ASW service so hardly ever wore O2 masks but I remember
that they also had those small round mics imbedded in the rubber.

Actually any intercom system (that I've used) will exhibit that
distinctive click and the hiss of background noise while the mic
is open. I recall searching for a stuck mic switch on an Argus
with maybe 20 intercom stations.

We used hot mic for takeoff and landing for the Pilots and F/E on
the Argus for instant comms. The hiss was annoying and was often
not used for that reason.

The Lanc model that we used carried a 'wire recorder' for the
sonobuoys which could likely have been wired to the intercom so
that's not a big deal but it didn't sound real to me.


Yes, I had my helmet wiring altered to provide a feed to a pocket
recorder.
We used the wire-recorders too. I forget the maker. I remember seeing a
F/O in an office passing 10" lengths of wire across the head of a
recorder to see what was on it after a crash. The take-up spool had been
bisected in the impact. He was writing down the contents of each length.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

Stolly September 28th 03 09:11 PM

Guys,

We have the name of the aircraft involved, its Squadron, the name of the BBC
guys that made the recording, a photo of them standing outside the aircraft
in question before the mission, pictures of the equipment they used, and the
date of the mission. We even know the eventual fate of the aircraft.

This is from multiple sources found by more than one person.

The 2 people that made the recording were BBC employees not members of the
services. The reporter in particular was a well known personality at the
time. I really do doubt that he would have been involved in a hoax for
propaganda reasons or any other and doubt even less that he would have kept
the secret for 40 years. He even mentioned this recording at a reunion of
207 squadron shortly before his death in the mid '80's.



"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
"M. J. Powell" wrote:

I don't remember any 'click' when the oxygen mask mic switch was used.
Some time early in the war the mic was changed from carbon to
moving-coil, using an extra amplifier in the intercom circuit.
Convention in my time was that only the pilot left his mic open all the
time, otherwise you got all the crew's breathing in your ears
continually.

Mike


Could be Mike, but you mention RAF and WW2 era. The RCAF used the
Lancaster X Maritime Reconnance version in the early to mid
fifties which indeed did still have hand held carbon mics. They
were the T-17 type and being young curious types we 'dismantled'
one and saw the carbon granules in the little pocket in there. We
were in ASW service so hardly ever wore O2 masks but I remember
that they also had those small round mics imbedded in the rubber.

Actually any intercom system (that I've used) will exhibit that
distinctive click and the hiss of background noise while the mic
is open. I recall searching for a stuck mic switch on an Argus
with maybe 20 intercom stations.

We used hot mic for takeoff and landing for the Pilots and F/E on
the Argus for instant comms. The hiss was annoying and was often
not used for that reason.

The Lanc model that we used carried a 'wire recorder' for the
sonobuoys which could likely have been wired to the intercom so
that's not a big deal but it didn't sound real to me. Mind you
now, I left Lancs nearly 50 years ago but I remember a lot about
them because I was young then and impressionable and I'm pretty
sure that that recording is fake...it's just much too quiet, no
engine noise at all...they were hellishly LOUD...the commands
just didn't sound 'right'...mind you they were RAF but still...

My considered opinion...fake...
--

-Gord.




Keith Willshaw September 28th 03 11:35 PM


"Stolly" wrote in message
...
Guys,

We have the name of the aircraft involved, its Squadron, the name of the

BBC
guys that made the recording, a photo of them standing outside the

aircraft
in question before the mission, pictures of the equipment they used, and

the
date of the mission. We even know the eventual fate of the aircraft.

This is from multiple sources found by more than one person.

The 2 people that made the recording were BBC employees not members of the
services. The reporter in particular was a well known personality at the
time. I really do doubt that he would have been involved in a hoax for
propaganda reasons or any other and doubt even less that he would have

kept
the secret for 40 years. He even mentioned this recording at a reunion of
207 squadron shortly before his death in the mid '80's.


While I'm quite sure the report is based on the actual flight and
accurately records what happened there were numerous cases
during the war when incidents were re-enacted as the original was
simply not very impressive when broadcast or shown on the
cinema screen.

For example some of the more impressive shots of British Infantry
advancing at El-Alamein were re-enacted after the battle as cameras
of the day were incapable of captuting images of the required quality
at night.

I would'nt be at all surprised in this case if some parts of the sound
track were redubbed later to make the clearer.

Keith



[email protected] September 29th 03 01:26 AM

"Keith Willshaw" wrote:


While I'm quite sure the report is based on the actual flight and
accurately records what happened there were numerous cases
during the war when incidents were re-enacted as the original was
simply not very impressive when broadcast or shown on the
cinema screen.

For example some of the more impressive shots of British Infantry
advancing at El-Alamein were re-enacted after the battle as cameras
of the day were incapable of captuting images of the required quality
at night.

I would'nt be at all surprised in this case if some parts of the sound
track were redubbed later to make the clearer.

Keith


Could be Keith...all I know is that for pretty damned sure that
recording wasn't made from a Lanc in flight. I listened to it
carefully several times and I'm convinced that it just couldn't
have been.

As I said, the Lanc is horrendously loud when in flight and
there's no trace of that distinctive sound that four Merlins make
when operating even at normal cruise power. There's no chance
that they could have filtered it that clean either cause there's
just no trace of the engines in it at all.

Some of the orders don't sit well with me either...the one where
the Pilot orders the Engineer to "Put the revs up", he likely
wouldn't have said it that way, more likely "Engineer, 2400 RPM
(or revs)" or somesuch. That sounds nitpicky I agree but "Put the
revs up" doesn't sit well with me. Sounds...well...fake.

I'm still convinced that it's not real.
--

-Gord.

Keith Willshaw September 29th 03 07:53 AM


"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote:


Could be Keith...all I know is that for pretty damned sure that
recording wasn't made from a Lanc in flight. I listened to it
carefully several times and I'm convinced that it just couldn't
have been.

As I said, the Lanc is horrendously loud when in flight and
there's no trace of that distinctive sound that four Merlins make
when operating even at normal cruise power. There's no chance
that they could have filtered it that clean either cause there's
just no trace of the engines in it at all.

Some of the orders don't sit well with me either...the one where
the Pilot orders the Engineer to "Put the revs up", he likely
wouldn't have said it that way, more likely "Engineer, 2400 RPM
(or revs)" or somesuch. That sounds nitpicky I agree but "Put the
revs up" doesn't sit well with me. Sounds...well...fake.

I'm still convinced that it's not real.
--


Its possible that what happened is that when the recording got
back to broadcasting house some producer decided that
the recording was too low a quality to use and got
a couple of actors to play the part.

It is a matter of record that Wynford Vaughan Thomas DID
fly that mission and took a sound engineer with him.

The sound engineer was Reg Pidsey and he used disc
recorders not a wire recorder

http://www.roger.beckwith.btinternet...r/wr_intro.htm

Keith



Blair Maynard September 29th 03 08:25 AM


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...


Its possible that what happened is that when the recording got
back to broadcasting house some producer decided that
the recording was too low a quality to use and got
a couple of actors to play the part.

It is a matter of record that Wynford Vaughan Thomas DID
fly that mission and took a sound engineer with him.

The sound engineer was Reg Pidsey and he used disc
recorders not a wire recorder

http://www.roger.beckwith.btinternet...r/wr_intro.htm

Keith


The lack of engine noise is rather odd. One would expect anybody trying to
fake such a recording would be quite capable of adding it.

It is obvious that people talk over each other, so either they are all in
the same room, or they have a full duplex system. Actually, it sounded like
they all had open mics. We don't hear much in the way of non-vocal noises
other than the machinegun bursts. Presumably that burst was picked up by a
mic which was open although nobody was speaking, so there had to be at least
one open mic, since they didn't have voice-activated mics back then.

Some of these things may be explicable. We would need to know the location
and recording characteristics of the recording device and how it was hooked
up to the comm system of the aircraft. And information about the comm system
of this aircraft to see if such a conversation was even possible. The nature
of the device could explain why the engine noise didn't get recorded. Early
recorders were probably not very good at recording low frequency sounds. It
may also explain why the machine gun sounds so tinny.

I don't think the crew was incredibly calm in that situation. They are
flying
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 8.0

iQA/AwUBP3ferFBGDfMEdHggEQJakQCeKNiTAZI00JILYBukObLj1n eZEckAoKKJ
J7pTP+o9IcwOjD3xBWs3bwOT
=Jzqw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




reading.news.pipex.net September 29th 03 09:10 AM

It may be that the recording was "cleaned up" before broadcast.

Lets not forget though that the recording was done on the night of 3/4 Sept
and broadcast the very next night on the evening of the 4th.

The aircraft would have landed around 6am on the 4th at RAF Spilsby. This
is near Skegness in Lincolnshire, around 3 hours drive from the BBC
broadcasting center in London (Crystal Palace in WWII IIRC) so the recording
would have arrived at the studio around 9am to be generous.

That doesn't leave much time for any re-recording with actors wouldn't you
agree ? Maybe time to edit the recording but not anything else.

"Blair Maynard" wrote in message
...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...


Its possible that what happened is that when the recording got
back to broadcasting house some producer decided that
the recording was too low a quality to use and got
a couple of actors to play the part.

It is a matter of record that Wynford Vaughan Thomas DID
fly that mission and took a sound engineer with him.

The sound engineer was Reg Pidsey and he used disc
recorders not a wire recorder

http://www.roger.beckwith.btinternet...r/wr_intro.htm

Keith


The lack of engine noise is rather odd. One would expect anybody trying to
fake such a recording would be quite capable of adding it.

It is obvious that people talk over each other, so either they are all in
the same room, or they have a full duplex system. Actually, it sounded

like
they all had open mics. We don't hear much in the way of non-vocal noises
other than the machinegun bursts. Presumably that burst was picked up by a
mic which was open although nobody was speaking, so there had to be at

least
one open mic, since they didn't have voice-activated mics back then.

Some of these things may be explicable. We would need to know the location
and recording characteristics of the recording device and how it was

hooked
up to the comm system of the aircraft. And information about the comm

system
of this aircraft to see if such a conversation was even possible. The

nature
of the device could explain why the engine noise didn't get recorded.

Early
recorders were probably not very good at recording low frequency sounds.

It
may also explain why the machine gun sounds so tinny.

I don't think the crew was incredibly calm in that situation. They are
flying
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 8.0

iQA/AwUBP3ferFBGDfMEdHggEQJakQCeKNiTAZI00JILYBukObLj1n eZEckAoKKJ
J7pTP+o9IcwOjD3xBWs3bwOT
=Jzqw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






Keith Willshaw September 29th 03 09:27 AM


"reading.news.pipex.net" wrote in message
t...
It may be that the recording was "cleaned up" before broadcast.


Quite so

Lets not forget though that the recording was done on the night of 3/4

Sept
and broadcast the very next night on the evening of the 4th.

The aircraft would have landed around 6am on the 4th at RAF Spilsby. This
is near Skegness in Lincolnshire, around 3 hours drive from the BBC
broadcasting center in London (Crystal Palace in WWII IIRC) so the

recording
would have arrived at the studio around 9am to be generous.

That doesn't leave much time for any re-recording with actors wouldn't you
agree ? Maybe time to edit the recording but not anything else.


Recall that we are talking of an era when radio plays were broadcast
live and that the BBC had its own rather large stock company.
Even today its not unusual for voice overs to be added
shortly before broadcast.

Keith



Keith Willshaw September 29th 03 09:37 AM


"Blair Maynard" wrote in message
...

The sound engineer was Reg Pidsey and he used disc
recorders not a wire recorder

http://www.roger.beckwith.btinternet...r/wr_intro.htm

Keith


The lack of engine noise is rather odd. One would expect anybody trying to
fake such a recording would be quite capable of adding it.


Unless of course the intent was to subtract it to make the
soundtrack audible.

It is obvious that people talk over each other, so either they are all in
the same room, or they have a full duplex system. Actually, it sounded

like
they all had open mics. We don't hear much in the way of non-vocal noises
other than the machinegun bursts. Presumably that burst was picked up by a
mic which was open although nobody was speaking, so there had to be at

least
one open mic, since they didn't have voice-activated mics back then.


Or the crew were recorded using a second non-standard microphone

Some of these things may be explicable. We would need to know the location
and recording characteristics of the recording device and how it was

hooked
up to the comm system of the aircraft. And information about the comm

system
of this aircraft to see if such a conversation was even possible. The

nature
of the device could explain why the engine noise didn't get recorded.

Early
recorders were probably not very good at recording low frequency sounds.

It
may also explain why the machine gun sounds so tinny.


The equipment used was apparently restricted to the range
60 Hz to 4500 Hz

I don't think the crew was incredibly calm in that situation. They are
flying


Details of the recording equipment used are available at

http://www.roger.beckwith.btinternet.../wr_action.htm
http://www.roger.beckwith.btinternet..._recorders.htm

Keith



M. J. Powell September 29th 03 12:19 PM

In message , Blair Maynard
writes

snip

It is obvious that people talk over each other, so either they are all in
the same room, or they have a full duplex system. Actually, it sounded like
they all had open mics. We don't hear much in the way of non-vocal noises
other than the machinegun bursts. Presumably that burst was picked up by a
mic which was open although nobody was speaking, so there had to be at least
one open mic, since they didn't have voice-activated mics back then.

Some of these things may be explicable. We would need to know the location
and recording characteristics of the recording device and how it was hooked
up to the comm system of the aircraft.


Basically all headphones are in parallel, aren't they? My recorder was
across my headphone feed and I got all the intercom chat.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

Blair Maynard September 29th 03 04:22 PM


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


"reading.news.pipex.net" wrote in message
t...
It may be that the recording was "cleaned up" before broadcast.


Any idea on which version of Steinberg Sound Forge they were using? :P
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 8.0

iQA/AwUBP3hOIFBGDfMEdHggEQKONQCglIOXAW8dDEdFzyPKkh1LFz gXyjAAn3dg
tOgMtLGX75HOpHWVaF+oLjxX
=gprc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




av8r September 29th 03 07:22 PM

Hi Keith

I'd like to know why the skipper called the Bomb Aimer a Bombaradier?

Cheers...Chris


Keith Willshaw September 29th 03 11:50 PM


"av8r" wrote in message
...
Hi Keith

I'd like to know why the skipper called the Bomb Aimer a Bombaradier?

Cheers...Chris


Who knows, maybe he was a Canadian ?

The term bomb aimer and air bomber were both current in the RAF
but I believe bombardier was used by the RCAF and Americanisms
abounded in slang usage even in 1943.

Personally I'm inclined to the view that it was not uttered
by the skipper at all but by an actor or continuity man in
BBC Broadcasting house when they were cleaning up the
tape.

Keith



Greg Hennessy September 30th 03 08:41 AM

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 23:50:36 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:

Personally I'm inclined to the view that it was not uttered
by the skipper at all but by an actor or continuity man in
BBC Broadcasting house when they were cleaning up the
tape.


Yes, the accents are a little too 'high spotties' in 'elexindra pillice'


greg


--
$ReplyAddress =~ s#\@.*$##; # Delete everything after the '@'
Who lives in a pineapple under the sea? Absorbent and yellow and pourous is he!
If nautical nonsense be something you wish! Then drop on the deck and flop like a fish!




Stephen Harding September 30th 03 06:58 PM

Stolly wrote:

He was fighting with the British Army in Malaya while the US was in Vietnam
around 1965 and said that the contrast between the radio discipline used by
the RAF Hunter pilots on ground attack missions was like the difference
between night and day compared to the US pilots flying similar missions over
Vietnam.

Malaya was close enough to pick up the US comms coming out of Vietnam.

He said "Our Hunter pilots were Target 2 miles. Diving now, Tally ho" (yes
they actually said Tally ho) "the Yanks were shouting and swearing about
ground fire this and f*cking that"


So just how much "f*cking that" ground fire were RAF Hunter pilots experiencing
compared to US pilots over Vietnam?

Pilots tend to be pretty calm over training ranges too, but I'm not certain
that is very indicative of the radio discipline of the individual.


SMH

M. J. Powell September 30th 03 09:28 PM

In message , Stephen Harding
writes
Stolly wrote:

He was fighting with the British Army in Malaya while the US was in Vietnam
around 1965 and said that the contrast between the radio discipline used by
the RAF Hunter pilots on ground attack missions was like the difference
between night and day compared to the US pilots flying similar missions over
Vietnam.

Malaya was close enough to pick up the US comms coming out of Vietnam.

He said "Our Hunter pilots were Target 2 miles. Diving now, Tally ho" (yes
they actually said Tally ho) "the Yanks were shouting and swearing about
ground fire this and f*cking that"


So just how much "f*cking that" ground fire were RAF Hunter pilots experiencing
compared to US pilots over Vietnam?

Pilots tend to be pretty calm over training ranges too, but I'm not certain
that is very indicative of the radio discipline of the individual.


The RT during the Bob was pretty rough according to some stories. To the
extent that higher command wanted to replace the WAAF operators with
men.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

Stolly October 1st 03 09:07 PM

Probably similar amounts, since the US pilots in question were flying over
the south, as far as could be assertained.

As they got further north they couldn't be heard unless there were pretty
high.

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
Stolly wrote:

He was fighting with the British Army in Malaya while the US was in

Vietnam
around 1965 and said that the contrast between the radio discipline used

by
the RAF Hunter pilots on ground attack missions was like the difference
between night and day compared to the US pilots flying similar missions

over
Vietnam.

Malaya was close enough to pick up the US comms coming out of Vietnam.

He said "Our Hunter pilots were Target 2 miles. Diving now, Tally ho"

(yes
they actually said Tally ho) "the Yanks were shouting and swearing about
ground fire this and f*cking that"


So just how much "f*cking that" ground fire were RAF Hunter pilots

experiencing
compared to US pilots over Vietnam?

Pilots tend to be pretty calm over training ranges too, but I'm not

certain
that is very indicative of the radio discipline of the individual.


SMH





All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:18 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
AviationBanter.com