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-   -   Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=9683)

Ed Rasimus July 19th 04 04:49 PM

On 18 Jul 2004 23:06:39 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

(Steve Mellenthin) wrote in message ...

Speaking out against a war takes courage but doing so in a way that encourages
the enemy, raises the level of danger to the men still in the line of fire, and
denigrates the service record of those who have served is not an act of
courage, it is an act of self serving political gratuity.


Absent the speeches made by Kerry and others like him how much longer
would American forces have remained in Vietnam? How many more would
have died, been wounded or captured. How many more Vietnamese would
have died? How much longer would the POWs have had to wait for
repatriation?


You need to read some good history of the war and stop reading Terry
McAullife dispatches.

Kerry was testifying before the Senate in 1971. Nixon had been elected
in 1968 and initiated his "Vietnamization" policy to draw down US
troop strength and turn over the war to the ARVN. By April of '71, the
US force had been reduced by half, bombing of NVN had been in hiatus
since 1968.

Arguably the testimony of Kerry encouraged the aggressiveness of the
NVA and led to the increased infiltration that led to the commencement
of Linebacker in May of '72, the siege of An Loch, the intensification
of the siege of Khe Sanh and the final destruction of Hue. The
encouragement of the NV probably increased the destruction rather than
reducing it.

The current government of Vietnam has estimated that we killed 1.4
million of their soldiers. That does not include wounded soldiers
or civilians killed or wounded. The United Staes won every militarily
significant battle of the Vietnam war. And still the communists
did not give up. Kerry realized that the war in Vietnam could not
be won by military means. It could only have been prolonged.


Once again the attribution of such a strategic view to a Lt(j.g.)
aboard a boat in MR IV is incredible.

Of course the "current goverment of Vietnam" would have a high
estimate--they are in Hanoi. They were the enemy. That was who we were
trying to kill!

We do not know the answers to the questions I posed above because
men like Kerry did speak out. We did pull out in 1973 and the
surviving POWs did come home. It has been argued that live POWS
were held back by the Vietnamese and others as hostages or slaves
but really, would fewer have been withheld had we remained in the
war longer?


GMAFB! We started our pullout in '68. Despite Kerry's best efforts to
encourage capitulation which wouldn't have resulted in a return of the
POWs we continued negotiation, brought military pressure to bear in
Linebacker I/II and succeeded in getting an incredibly rapid return of
the POWs. It wasn't BECAUSE of Kerry, it was IN SPITE OF him.

What good would Kerry have done by remaining silent, or by echoing
the lies of his government?


He might now be accepted in his newly desired role of American hero.

And, your acceptance of the concept of "the lies of his government"
should be carefully examined.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus July 19th 04 05:01 PM

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:04:34 GMT,
(John S. Shinal) wrote:

(BUFDRVR) wrote:
I'm not sure who Chuckie is, but there are a few civilian owned T-38s.


Chuck Thornton owned one that was assembled from three wrecked
T-38 airframes purchased surplus. He allegedly really torqued some
people off over that since he had tried to buy one several times and
been rebuffed. It was painted like an Agressor from Nellis, in a
blue/white/gray scheme that would be hard to spot in the air.


Hard to imagine enough salvageable from three wrecks to put together a
flyable T-38. The magnesium under body and the honeycomb wing
structure would be hard to repair. The seats and the engines would be
the hardest parts to get.

As for the paint job, if his is the one that's been seen on several TV
commercials, it's done in gloss while the Aggressor T-38s were all
flat. The Nellis T-38 Aggressors came in all colors including the
basic white as well as blues, grays, browns and "lizard."

We got them all at Holloman while I was there. Over the NM desert, the
most effective was the brown.

In '83 we got the entire AT-38 fleet painted in a standard
blue-blue-gray gloss camo. That's still what is used by the 435th
doing the fighter lead-in portion of the SUPT syllabus.

The gossip is that MiG 17s are more of a fun flyer, with fewer
maintenance hours per flight hour, and an easy engine to deal with. I
think spins in the MiG 17 are unrecoverable, though.


Dunno. Never got a -17 flight, but it would be hard to pack more
performance into a little airplane than a T-38. Spins in a T-38 are
unrecoverable as well, but also virtually unattainable. The airplane
will spin, but it is a decidedly unnatural act and AFAIK only been
accomplished in very abusive flight testing at Edwards.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus July 19th 04 05:02 PM

On 19 Jul 2004 06:45:19 GMT, (Regnirps) wrote:

(BUFDRVR) wrote:

I'm pretty sure there was a system in the T-38's where you could throw the
panic switch on approah and it did the rest -- provided you met certain
constraints about being lined up right.


There is no such system on any T-38, including the new C models with glass
cockpit.


Well, I'll be dipped. I would have sworn on a stack of Bibles that I had know
people who experienced such a thing. Also would have sworn there was a lengthy
flight test and review in Private Pilot about 35 years ago that described the
whole thing. Well, I have been wrong before, and now it's twice this year and
it isn't even August.

-- Charlie Springer


No autopilot of any kind in the Talon. It does have stab-aug and it
does have an ILS.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

ArtKramr July 19th 04 05:23 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 7/19/04 8:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 19 Jul 2004 14:44:33 GMT,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Except of course for the self appointed "Warrior Class" who revel in all

that
crap. Save us all from the war lovers.


Arthur Kramer


Lacking warriors you might find yourself today speaking German,
Japanese or Russian. Next year you might be doing some Quran study and
waiting for the call of muezzin.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

..

Wars are not won by warriors. They are won by kids barely out of their teens
who do what they were trained to dp. The "Warriors" just take credit for it
all.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Ed Rasimus July 19th 04 05:38 PM

On 19 Jul 2004 16:23:04 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Wars are not won by warriors. They are won by kids barely out of their teens
who do what they were trained to dp. The "Warriors" just take credit for it
all.


Arthur Kramer


You might consider picking up Stolen Valor by Burkitt at the local
library. He very effectively debunks the "nineteen" myth regarding the
average age of Vietnam combatants.

Give me an army of "kids barely out of their teens" and I'll give you
an effective war-fighting force in about four years, provided I've got
a cadre of senior NCOs and Officers with the mettle to do the job.

Norm Schwartzkopf, Chuck Horner, Tommy Franks, Colin Powell, Joe
Ralston, Ron Fogleman, and a litany of others fill the warrior
definition much better than the teen-ager one.

But, if wishing will make it so in your mind, it will be.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

ian maclure July 19th 04 06:31 PM

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:13:17 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

Not that it really matters because what should matter is who would best lead
the country not so much as 35 year old history.


Bush has been a disastrous failure as president.


Sez you.

If Bush wins in November, this country will become even more of a police state.


How soon you forget Klintoon's musings about how everyone was
too concerned about their rights.
More than once it had to be pointed out to him that the
Constitution wasn't a list of suggestions.
And that was without a war on.

If Bush wins in November our national flag and national honor will continue to
trail in the dust.


No, we aren't aren't going to listen to the French, Germans, and
Russians.

If Bush wins in November we will still be hated and mistrusted around the
world.


Hello, the gang who started the whole ball rolling don't give
a rats ass. Remember, much of the planning got 9/11 occurred
before 2001.

If Bush wins in November, we will be less safe than we are now.


Sez the Dumbocreeps. If you're so concerned about your safety,
convert to Islam and move to Saudi Arabia. Than at least, Al-Qaeda
might leave you alone ( as long as your beard is the correct length
and you do nothing but eat, ****, and pray ).

If Bush wins in November, he'll still be sucking money out of the
middle class to save the bank rolls of the rich and super rich.


The rich and super-rich sounds like Fratman and Bobbin to
me.

If Bush wins in November our grotesquesly maladroit foreign policies will
continue.


"maladroit"? OK, now I know you're channeling somebody.

If Bush wins in November, Jeb will be right behind him.


As I've explained before, it'll be Bush 44, Bush 45 (Mrs W),
Bush 46 ( Mizz Jeb ), Bush 47/49, Bush 48/50 ( the twins
alternating terms as Prez & VP )

Those ******* Republicans have got to go.


Hey Hey!
Ho Ho!
What kind of drugs are you on.
Or is the problem you aren't on your meds?

IBM



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ian maclure July 19th 04 06:51 PM

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:56:11 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

Bush was not elected. He was appointed. We'll fix that in November.



Elected by the Congress, like all Presidents in a joint session that
most Americans regard as a formality if they know about it at all.


Michael Moore uses some footage in "Fahrenheit 911" from the 2000 certification
of Florida's elctoral votes in the Senate. They could have been challenged if
any one senator had agreed to co-sign the documentation provided by black
members of Congress.


Would this be the Senate that contained something like 45-50
Democrats? None of whome could be inveigled into signing on?
Raises some interesting questions don't you think?

Since you seem pretty familiar with this, what do you think about the rationale
the Supreme Court used to close out the Florida recount?


They were correct.

My understanding is that the Court has usually deferred to state courts in
interpreting state constitutions. But here, they took the issue away from the
state court and basically declared Bush the winner.


When State Courts exceed their authority, the USSC can and will spank
them.

In "F-911" you can hear Congresswoman Corrine Brown say that 16,000 of her
constituents had been illegally disinfranchised in Duvall County.


And what would you expect a sore loser to say.
I imagine she was fine with things as they were as long as she
liked the result.

Bush is already gearing up to steal this election. Karl Rove, his
communication director worked with Donald Segretti, who served time in prison
for his activities in the 1972 campaign. Bush actually has Nixon
adminstration officals working for him. These include Cheney and Rumsfeld.


You seem to have your facts mixed up. It was the Democraps who recruited
a family dynasty of elctoral thieves ( the Daley boys ) to go in and
fix the results. Seems the Daleys don't do too well out of their own
ecosystem.

The Republican Party dirty tricks organization is hard at work and has been
since Nixon's time.


This from a partisan of those who brought us Tammany Hall, and Dumbocrip
wardheelers.

IBM

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ian maclure July 19th 04 06:55 PM

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:34:06 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

[snip]

Elected by the Congress, like all Presidents in a joint session that
most Americans regard as a formality if they know about it at all.


Not quite.
The size of the electoral college is approximately the same
as Congress ( both houses ).
Congress only gets a direct vote if the Electoral College is
a dead heat.

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ian maclure July 19th 04 06:58 PM

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:31:24 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

[snip]

Bernie Kozar, former QB of the Cleveland Browns graduated from a
4-year college after two years. He did it because he was smart
enough to complete a four-year program in two years. I also knew
a girl in college who got her microbilogy degree in three years.


Which oddly enough is the sort of thing that gets mentioned
in biographies.
Don't recall seeing that in Bobbin's bio.

IBM

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ian maclure July 19th 04 06:58 PM

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 01:14:56 -0500, Jack wrote:

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

What good would Kerry have done by remaining silent, or by echoing
the lies of his government?


Kerry was hardly a Canary in a coal mine by that time, but just another
silver spoon sucker with political ambitions looking for a bandwagon to
ride, with no regard for those he defamed.


In short, Fratman was a Kape Kod Kommunist.

IBM

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George Z. Bush July 19th 04 07:04 PM


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On 19 Jul 2004 08:57:38 GMT, (WalterM140) wrote:

I turned 18 in 1973. My draft lottery number was somewhere between
183 and 187. But no one was drafted from my year, the first such
year since the start of the Vietnam era draft.


I turned 18 in 1973 also. I asked my recruiter if I should register and he
said not to worry about it.



Walt


You recruiter told you to break the law and you did? It becomes
clearer with each posting why think the way you do.


Unless they changed the law back in the 70s, in my day the law didn't require
you to register if you had volunteered and were waiting for your reporting date.
I may be wrong, but that's the way I remember it.

George Z.



B2431 July 19th 04 07:17 PM

From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/19/2004 3:57 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

I turned 18 in 1973. My draft lottery number was somewhere between
183 and 187. But no one was drafted from my year, the first such
year since the start of the Vietnam era draft.


I turned 18 in 1973 also. I asked my recruiter if I should register and he
said not to worry about it.

Walt


Good thing you didn't say you decided not to register. We can't have you
admitting you committed a felony, can we?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


Mark Cook July 19th 04 07:21 PM

"WalterM140" wrote in message
...
Bush was not elected. He was appointed. We'll fix that in November.

Elected by the Congress, like all Presidents in a joint session that
most Americans regard as a formality if they know about it at all.


Michael Moore uses some footage in "Fahrenheit 911" from the 2000

certification
of Florida's elctoral votes in the Senate. They could have been challenged

if
any one senator had agreed to co-sign the documentation provided by black
members of Congress.


Yes, they could have challenged, but would have lost. With the make up of
Congress, and the Electoral Count Act of 1887, only the candidate who held
state certification would win this type of challenge. Of course, Bush held
state certification as a result of the remedy crafted by the Democrat
majority of the Florida Supreme Court (Palm Beach County Canvassing Board
vs. Harris). Instead of ordering a full recount, the court decided that
state certification would be awarded to the winner of 4 Democrat majority
county recount.

"Rougher translation: We're giving you a chance to explain your way out of
the federal law trap into which you stumbled on Nov. 21. But we don't see
how you can do it. And by the way, it isn't only us that you have to
convince. Under another provision of that 1887 act (3 U.S.C. section 15),
the Bush electors that Gov. Jeb Bush has already certified and sent to
Congress, via the archivist of the United States, will be the ones counted,
unless any Gore electors approved by the Florida courts can pass muster with
both the Republican-controlled House and the Senate. Not much chance of
that."

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...2000-12-13.htm

While Democrats will argue that is was Gore's right to only protest counties
that he wanted, his short-sighted decision cost him the election.

Since you seem pretty familiar with this, what do you think about the

rationale
the Supreme Court used to close out the Florida recount?

My understanding is that the Court has usually deferred to state courts in
interpreting state constitutions.


That is the problem. The US Constitution gives the state legislature the
right to enact election law. The Florida Supreme Court CANNOT use the state
constitution to change those codes. See the article above.

But here, they took the issue away from the state court
and basically declared Bush the winner.


No, Bush was already the winner by that time, see above.

In "F-911" you can hear Congresswoman Corrine Brown say that 16,000 of her
constituents had been illegally disinfranchised in Duvall County.

Bush is already gearing up to steal this election. Karl Rove, his
communication director worked with Donald Segretti, who served time in

prison
for his activities in the 1972 campaign. Bush actually has Nixon
adminstration officals working for him. These include Cheney and

Rumsfeld.

The Republican Party dirty tricks organization is hard at work and has

been
since Nixon's time.

Walt





ArtKramr July 19th 04 07:22 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: "George Z. Bush" am
Date: 7/19/2004 11:04 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .
On 19 Jul 2004 08:57:38 GMT,
(WalterM140) wrote:

I turned 18 in 1973. My draft lottery number was somewhere between
183 and 187. But no one was drafted from my year, the first such
year since the start of the Vietnam era draft.


I turned 18 in 1973 also. I asked my recruiter if I should register and

he
said not to worry about it.



Walt


You recruiter told you to break the law and you did? It becomes
clearer with each posting why think the way you do.


Unless they changed the law back in the 70s, in my day the law didn't
require
you to register if you had volunteered and were waiting for your reporting
date.
I may be wrong, but that's the way I remember it.

George Z.



Me too.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


ArtKramr July 19th 04 07:27 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: "ian maclure"
Date: 7/19/2004 10:37 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:11:03 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

Was I said was that Kerry didn't seem
particularly committed to his crew and his oath to serve since he took an
"early out" from Vietnam.


That early out took being wounded three times.


So Trotskerry sez. The doctor who treated at least one of those
booboos and his CO at the time would beg to differ.

Kerry had to volunteer three times to get that early out. He had to

volunteer
for the Navy. He had to volunteer for Viet Nam. And he had to volunteer

for
the Swift Boats.


Bet he thought he'd spend his time swanning around the TOnkin
Gulf Yacht Club. Bet he was surprised.

I wonder if his experience in the Swift Boats didn't sour him on the war.

If
he opted out of being killed for a mistake, I'd say it would be hard to

gainsay
him.


Hmmm, does the chronology match with Johnson realizing he'd
well and truly screwed the pooch and deciding to skidaddle?

He had an honorable out and he took it.


Nah, he chickened and ran.


And you of course stayed in after your three Purple Hearts and a SIlver star.
Right?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Bill Shatzer July 19th 04 10:09 PM

Buzzer ) writes:
On 19 Jul 2004 04:32:11 GMT, (Bill Shatzer)
wrote:


-snip-

Rules change if one is activated - assuming he was still eligible of
activation. Until that happens however, one is essentially a civilian.


Certainly he was not subject to the UCMJ.


Appears he was an ID card carrying member of the Naval Reserve at the
time. Don't know if they are subject to the UCMJ?


See article 2 of the UCMJ. Reserves are only subject to the UCMJ
while on inactive duty training.

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

Bill Shatzer July 19th 04 10:19 PM

Ed Rasimus ) writes:

Sorry, Fred, but unless you are referring to the certification of the
vote of the EC, you are wrong. The President is elected by majority
vote of the Electoral College which, although it has the same number
as Representatives and Senators of the states, is NOT synonymous with
the Congress.


The EC votes in December of presidential election years, but does so
remotely and does not convene in a single location. They, by law, are
NOT the members of the Congress.


Actually, it is the -constitution- (and not a mere law) which
makes senators and representatives - as well as anyone else
holding an "office or profit or trust under the federal government
- ineligible to be an elector.

The winner must win by a majority vote, not a plurality. If no
majority, then the Presidential race goes to the house where each
Representative gets a vote and the VP race goes to the Senate where
each State gets one vote.


Actually, that's backwards. The election for president in the house
has the representatives voting by states with each state getting
one vote regardless of the number of representatives and the votes
of a majority of the states required for election. The VP election
in the Senate has the senators voting individually with the votes of
a majority of the senators being required.

Whether the current VP gets a vote in the senate to break a tie-vote
deadlock is not exactly clear.

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

Brett July 19th 04 10:45 PM

"George Z. Bush" wrote:
"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On 19 Jul 2004 08:57:38 GMT, (WalterM140) wrote:

I turned 18 in 1973. My draft lottery number was somewhere between
183 and 187. But no one was drafted from my year, the first such
year since the start of the Vietnam era draft.


I turned 18 in 1973 also. I asked my recruiter if I should register

and he
said not to worry about it.



Walt


You recruiter told you to break the law and you did? It becomes
clearer with each posting why think the way you do.


Unless they changed the law back in the 70s, in my day the law didn't

require
you to register


It did, you didn't have to register between 1975 until 1980, when Jimmy
Carter got concerned about the Soviet's in Afghanistan.



Paul J. Adam July 19th 04 10:48 PM

In message , Ed Rasimus
writes
Give me an army of "kids barely out of their teens" and I'll give you
an effective war-fighting force in about four years, provided I've got
a cadre of senior NCOs and Officers with the mettle to do the job.


I wasn't much of a soldier, though I wore the uniform and took the
Queen's shilling while I worked at learning the trade (and enjoyed most
of it; the rest I'll call 'character building'. *I* wasn't medevacked
with hypothermia even if other members of my platoon were! :) [Mostly, I
was in my basha when the rain hit so I was drier than they were in the
winds that followed... but why spoil a good story?]).


But with hindsight, one of the reasons the units I served in worked so
well was that each year's incoming cadre of 18 and 19-year old 'officer
cadets' ran head-on into some skilled, experienced and devious SNCOs
with good senior officers to back them up (definition of a good
adjutant... like God, you know He's there but you're glad you never get
proof of His existence :) ) and junior officers being given the chance
to sink or swim as leaders with a platoon of officer-cadets to lead. (If
we managed nothing else, we were a tough audience)

Even in peacetime, sorting "those who can lead" from "those who should
follow" and sifting out "arrogant buggers with too much technical
knowledge who think they *should* lead but lack the necessary skills[1]"
is not a simple task. My respects to those who tried to do so in
wartime.



[1] Yes, with hindsight, that was me. Still, better to try and fail...
and my current 'acting rank' is higher than anything I'd have achieved
in uniform, if you believe the published equivalencies.

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

Billy Preston July 19th 04 11:40 PM

"ArtKramr" wrote

The American public has all they can take of Neocon crap.


Welfare is a tough choice, but I guess you have to live it to appreciate it eh?



Billy Preston July 19th 04 11:45 PM

"Steve Mellenthin" wrote
Except of course for the self appointed "Warrior Class" who revel in all that
crap. Save us all from the war lovers.

Arthur Kramer


I'll be damned Art! Everyone whom I have passed your website URL to and has
looked at it sees you as squarely in the middle of those war lovers.

You appear to revel in your wartime experiences and can't even send an response
to this board without a signature block that is a mini resume of your wartime
exploits. Most of us here with combat experience rarely do anything close to
that - ever. I respectfully suggest to you that you are speaking out of both
sides of your mouth. You can't have it both ways, my friend.


Besides becoming eligible for welfare, it's the only other thing he's done in
his life.



Billy Preston July 19th 04 11:49 PM

"George Z. Bush" wrote

Unless they changed the law back in the 70s, in my day the law didn't require
you to register if you had volunteered and were waiting for your reporting date.
I may be wrong, but that's the way I remember it.


I think you are correct. If you entered delayed enlistment you were basically
in the reserves at that point, and selective service only applied to civilians.



Billy Preston July 20th 04 12:12 AM

"Ed Rasimus" wrote

Jack Broughton.


I never met the man, but after reading his book, I still wonder why he didn't
win the war single-handed, and probably faster if all those other people would
just get out of his way. It's been 10 years since I read it, so maybe I've
matured and can re-read it with a different attitude.

To tell the truth, I think I met a man just like him once, but by 1981 those kinds
of Colonels were dead meat in the modern USAF. Team players, not glory hogs
need only apply. There was war before him, war after him, and no one can be
as important as he claimed he was.

Just an observation from reading him.



WalterM140 July 20th 04 12:33 AM

"WalterM140" wrote

I turned 18 in 1973 also. I asked my recruiter if I should register and he
said not to worry about it.


That's just the most ignorant thing I've heard from you yet. Registering for
selective service was never an option for men in 1973. If the recruiter told
you to jump in a lake, would you do it?


I would if my Drill Instructor had said to.

I joined the Marine Corps the same day I turned 18. Why register for the draft
then?

I'm sure Master Gunnery Sergeant Beatty didn't know whether or not I should
register for the draft. He just wanted my skinny ass to wind up on Parris
Island.

Which it did.

Walt

Ed Rasimus July 20th 04 12:35 AM

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:48:03 +0100, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:

In message , Ed Rasimus
writes
Give me an army of "kids barely out of their teens" and I'll give you
an effective war-fighting force in about four years, provided I've got
a cadre of senior NCOs and Officers with the mettle to do the job.


I wasn't much of a soldier, though I wore the uniform and took the
Queen's shilling while I worked at learning the trade (and enjoyed most
of it; the rest I'll call 'character building'. *I* wasn't medevacked
with hypothermia even if other members of my platoon were! :) [Mostly, I
was in my basha when the rain hit so I was drier than they were in the
winds that followed... but why spoil a good story?]).


But with hindsight, one of the reasons the units I served in worked so
well was that each year's incoming cadre of 18 and 19-year old 'officer
cadets' ran head-on into some skilled, experienced and devious SNCOs
with good senior officers to back them up (definition of a good
adjutant... like God, you know He's there but you're glad you never get
proof of His existence :) ) and junior officers being given the chance
to sink or swim as leaders with a platoon of officer-cadets to lead. (If
we managed nothing else, we were a tough audience)

Even in peacetime, sorting "those who can lead" from "those who should
follow" and sifting out "arrogant buggers with too much technical
knowledge who think they *should* lead but lack the necessary skills[1]"
is not a simple task. My respects to those who tried to do so in
wartime.


Well said. Puts the esoterica of discussion into the perspective of
reality.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

WalterM140 July 20th 04 12:36 AM

I turned 18 in 1973 also. I asked my recruiter if I should register and he
said not to worry about it.

Walt


You recruiter told you to break the law and you did? It becomes
clearer with each posting why think the way you do.



Well, I was 18. If Top Beatty said not to worry about it, that was fine with
me.

Why register for the draft when you have orders for recruit training?

I keep my DD-214 handy in case someone asks. :)

Walt


WalterM140 July 20th 04 12:39 AM

I turned 18 in 1973 also. I asked my recruiter if I should register and he
said not to worry about it.

Walt


Good thing you didn't say you decided not to register. We can't have you
admitting you committed a felony, can we?



Wow! All these notes.

I joined the Marine Corps the day I turned 18 because my mother would have no
part of it.

Why register for the draft when you already have orders to recruit training?

If I ever get busted, I'll show them my DD-214 and Honorable Discharge.

Walt

WalterM140 July 20th 04 12:41 AM

Would this be the Senate that contained something like 45-50
Democrats? None of whome could be inveigled into signing on?


Yeah, that's weird, isn't it? Tom Dashchle (sp) directed that no senator sign.


Walt

Mike Marron July 20th 04 12:48 AM

Ed Rasimus wrote:

?????? What is that about? Who is Chuckie?


Around here "Chucky" is the nickname of the Tampa Bay Bucanneers
head football coach Jon Gruden (formerly the Oakland Raiders head
coach). The fans nicknamed him that because (for example) in 3rd and
long situations deep in his own territory with time running down, a
stressed-out Gruden kinda resembles the "Chucky" doll in the 1990
R-rated horror flick, "Child's Play." :-E --- fangs

(Even if I could afford a T-38, having to pay for my own JP-4 would
take all the fun out of those full-burner takeoffs!!)














ArtKramr July 20th 04 01:31 AM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: "Billy Preston"
Date: 7/19/2004 3:45 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: [email protected]

"Steve Mellenthin" wrote
Except of course for the self appointed "Warrior Class" who revel in all

that
crap. Save us all from the war lovers.

Arthur Kramer


I'll be damned Art! Everyone whom I have passed your website URL to and

has
looked at it sees you as squarely in the middle of those war lovers.

You appear to revel in your wartime experiences and can't even send an

response
to this board without a signature block that is a mini resume of your

wartime
exploits. Most of us here with combat experience rarely do anything close

to
that - ever. I respectfully suggest to you that you are speaking out of

both
sides of your mouth. You can't have it both ways, my friend.


Besides becoming eligible for welfare, it's the only other thing he's done in
his life.



How about a Senior Vice President Creative Supervisor with a major American
corporation with operations worldwide? How about you? Ever done anything?.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Regnirps July 20th 04 01:53 AM

(WalterM140) wrote:

Since you seem pretty familiar with this, what do you think about the

rationale
the Supreme Court used to close out the Florida recount?


My understanding is that the Court has usually deferred to state courts in
interpreting state constitutions. But here, they took the issue away from the
state court and basically declared Bush the winner.


The NYT and all the other news orgs who investigayed over the last two years
concluded that Bush would have won recounts in the areas Gore wanted recounted.
This issue is so sooo dead that anyone still carying on about it is just trying
to poison the well!

-- Charlie Springer


Steve Mellenthin July 20th 04 01:57 AM

How about a Senior Vice President Creative Supervisor with a major American
corporation with operations worldwide? How about you? Ever done anything?.


Arthur Kramer


VP level program manager in AF Aeronautical Systems Division. Worked B-1, B-2,
KC-135R, F-15, F-16, F-22, amomg others. Executive support for 3 Star
commander. Otherwise nothing at all.

WalterM140 July 20th 04 01:57 AM

The NYT and all the other news orgs who investigayed over the last two years
concluded that Bush would have won recounts in the areas Gore wanted
recounted.
This issue is so sooo dead that anyone still carying on about it is just
trying
to poison the well!


Can you source that?

Congresswoman Brown indicated that 16,000 of her constituents were not allowed
to vote at all, mooting recounts.

But I'd like you to provide a quote that the NYT said what you suggest.

Walt

Regnirps July 20th 04 02:05 AM

(Bill Shatzer) wrote in message
...

If one fired an M-79 round "too close", it would simply impact with
a thud and no "boom".

Presenting a possible problem for the ordinance disposal folks who
came along later but no particular problem for the firer.


An M406? I assume he wasn't throwing the launcher ;-) Anyway, why wouldn't a
high loft do it? Besides, they armed as close as 14 meters and the wound was a
small cut from a fragment of steel or stone. I wouldn't want to be standing up
ogling 50 feet from one of those!

-- Charlie Springer

Regnirps July 20th 04 02:11 AM

(WalterM140) wrote:

Those ******* Republicans have got to go.


Yes. Democratic Socialism is the natural evolution of politics! Now we only
have to kill half the population. Then the right wing half of whats left, then
.....


-- Charlie Springer


Regnirps July 20th 04 02:17 AM

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Art, who was the main stategy guy when you were flying?


Doolittle, I would think.


I have no idea. I just flew he missions.


Jusy wondered. I have home movies of LeMay visiting Duxford. Curious about the
evolution of his tight formation strategies and all that.

-- Charlie Springer


Regnirps July 20th 04 02:33 AM

(John S. Shinal) wrote:


The gossip is that MiG 17s are more of a fun flyer, with fewer
maintenance hours per flight hour, and an easy engine to deal with. I
think spins in the MiG 17 are unrecoverable, though.


I can tell you first hand from filming takeoffs that the MiG is REALLY LOUD!

But not as loud as when the Blue Angels took off and the two trailing planes
split right and left as soon as they were off the ground. "Here, set up right
here. You'll get a great shot. Chuckle chuckle". The left one went right over
my head - way too close to fit in the camera frame at wide angle. Ever have the
experience of actually turning into jello? I was wearing my best hearing
protectors, but it was my insides that went all rubbery :-) I remember watching
Phantom engine tests just for fu. It was nothing like this. But then this time
there were five FA-18s at once.

Poor guy's left gear was stuck down and he had to skip the show and fly to a
nearby Air Force base for a landing.

-- Charlie Springer


Regnirps July 20th 04 02:40 AM

"George Z. Bush" wrote

Unless they changed the law back in the 70s, in my day the law didn't

require
you to register if you had volunteered and were waiting for your reporting

date.
I may be wrong, but that's the way I remember it.


They called it "Inactive Reserve". My disharge shows 6 months if inactive
reserve and 18 days of active duty (I got a medal :0). Later on I got into much
more interesting "civilian" activities. But I can't tell you, you'd just laugh.

-- Charlie Springer

BUFDRVR July 20th 04 02:47 AM

How much longer would the POWs have had to wait for
repatriation?


Recent interviews with former NVN government and military officers and the
publication of certain NVN documents reveal the U.S. anti-war effort actually
encouraged NVN to continue the conflict in hopes of getting the U.S. out of the
war entirely, including support for SVN. There is no doubt that had several
congressmen (most, but not all, democrats) not openly called for congress to
cut off *all* funding for the war in SE Asia, that the NVN would not have
walked out of Paris in December 1972.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

ArtKramr July 20th 04 03:29 AM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (Regnirps)
Date: 7/19/2004 6:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Art, who was the main stategy guy when you were flying?

Doolittle, I would think.


I have no idea. I just flew he missions.


Jusy wondered. I have home movies of LeMay visiting Duxford. Curious about
the
evolution of his tight formation strategies and all that.

-- Charlie Springer


We were just a bunch ot 19 year olds who had the following priorities:

1. Perform well on the mission.

2. Get home alive

3. Get a three day pass to London or Paris.

4. Get a lot of wild wild woman to play with.

Who invented the tight formation? Never gave it a thought. We had higher
piorities. We had all of Europe at our feet. All we had to do was to figure out
what to do with it.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer



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