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-   -   Two MOH Winners say Bush Didn't Serve (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=9357)

Tammy June 10th 04 04:55 PM

No. Why don't you fill us in.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message ink.net...
"Tammy" wrote in message
om...

I know that Kerry earned four or five medals for bravery under fire or
similar action. Does anyone know how many medals for heroism Cheney
and Bush earned. I heard that it was less than Kerry.


It appears some of those awards were likely unearned. Have you heard why
Kerry didn't complete his Vietnam service?


Steven P. McNicoll June 10th 04 05:13 PM


"Tammy" wrote in message
om...

No. Why don't you fill us in.


I haven't heard either. It appears Kerry won't talk about it.



Leslie Swartz June 10th 04 05:34 PM

The first time you posted this, you were mistaken (as refuted in this
venue).

The second time you posted this, you were a liar (as refuted again in this
venue).

Now that you have posted this untruth a third time, what does that make you?

Steve Swartz




"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

Nobody gets to COLLECT the money. Trudeau was giving it to a charity
of his choice.


That's true....the contest rules were that if someone presented credible

and
valid evidence of Bush's military service, the money would be donated in

his
name to the USO. Here's the rule and, if you don't believe me, I've also
included the link so you can see for yourself:

"Q: Is there some sort of hitch?
A: Well, yes, but it's a hitch for a good cause. The winner won't actually
receive the reward for himself; instead we'll be donating $10,000 in his

name to
the USO. That way everyone's a winner, including GBT's tax accountant"

http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/bush_guard.html

He only gave it to the USO after unsuccessfully waiting for months for

somebody
to come forward with some credible evidence. When nobody did, he turned

the
money over to the USO even though there was no winner.

George Z.





Jim Yanik June 10th 04 07:08 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote in
:

On 10 Jun 2004 08:21:52 GMT, (WalterM140) wrote:


Bush was released after 5 years, 4 months and five days of a six year
commitment.

If he didn't get special favor, how did that happen?


And Kerry was released from active duty after how long?

Let's put the time in context. The Vietnam War had ended, the
requirements for the military were being cut back. The TANG was
converting from F-102 to F-101 requiring retraining and the training
was longer than Bush' remaining service commitment. The Guard allows
transfers from active to inactive. "Early Out" programs were rampant.

Get over it.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8


I got a 6 month "early out" in 1974 from the USAF.I jumped at the chance to
get it,was the first one to apply on my base.(LG Hanscom Fld,Ma.)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

Jim Yanik June 10th 04 07:10 PM

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
k.net:


"Tammy" wrote in message
om...

No. Why don't you fill us in.


I haven't heard either. It appears Kerry won't talk about it.



Gee,what's he got to hide?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

Steven P. McNicoll June 10th 04 07:15 PM


"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
.. .

Gee,what's he got to hide?


To be fair, there may be nothing to hide. But not talking about it at all
suggests there is something to hide. With the way his campaign has been
going you can bet that if he believed it would help he'd be talking about it
everywhere.



John S. Shinal June 10th 04 07:20 PM

(WalterM140) wrote:
Did he bail early? Alleged, unproven

No it's not. Follow this link:

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/ANG22.gif
It shows 5 years, 4 months and 5 days service out of a six year commitment.


This period of the Vietnam era, a lot of people in every
service branch were released early, particularly Reserve or Warrant
officers. It was called a 'drop' and was done as an administrative
matter all the time. A drop of over 180 days is notable, but 90 day
drops were common. If you want to allege influence, it was over the
length of the drop, not over the fact that he got one.




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Ed Rasimus June 10th 04 07:35 PM

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 18:08:22 +0000 (UTC), Jim Yanik
wrote:

I got a 6 month "early out" in 1974 from the USAF.I jumped at the chance to
get it,was the first one to apply on my base.(LG Hanscom Fld,Ma.)


My advice is don't run for political office.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

George Z. Bush June 10th 04 09:22 PM


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 07:39:44 -0400, "George Z. Bush"
wrote:


Did you also know that Mr. Kerry also stupidly and recklessly risked his

men
and warship to win the medals?


Isn't it hilarious how "stupidly and recklessly" impressed the awarding
authorities so much that they approved the award of a Silver Star and a

Bronze
Star to him? But what do those jerks know, right? They were just Navy

captains
and admirals.

George Z.

Dare we bring up LBJ's Silver Star?


When did you start needing my permission? But why do you want to compare a
Texas congressman on active duty with a 23 year old boat driver who, at that
point, had no markers out that he could call on for somebody to run interference
for him? Other than the piece of hardware that evolved, aren't they apples and
oranges? One was a field grade officer with political clout and the other a
green company grade guy. Or am I not remembering it right?

George Z.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8




Ed Rasimus June 10th 04 10:29 PM

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:22:48 -0400, "George Z. Bush"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 07:39:44 -0400, "George Z. Bush"
wrote:


Did you also know that Mr. Kerry also stupidly and recklessly risked his

men and warship to win the medals?

Isn't it hilarious how "stupidly and recklessly" impressed the awarding
authorities so much that they approved the award of a Silver Star and a

Bronze Star to him? But what do those jerks know, right? They were just Navy
captains and admirals.
George Z.

Dare we bring up LBJ's Silver Star?


When did you start needing my permission? But why do you want to compare a
Texas congressman on active duty with a 23 year old boat driver who, at that
point, had no markers out that he could call on for somebody to run interference
for him? Other than the piece of hardware that evolved, aren't they apples and
oranges? One was a field grade officer with political clout and the other a
green company grade guy. Or am I not remembering it right?

George Z.


I think you aren't remembering it right. LBJ's service was hardly
"active duty" and the SS mission was absurd.

My point was that medals vary. There are a lot of heroic events that
gain no award and a lot of awards that followed minimalist events.

My opinion has always been that medals are often the result of being
in the wrong place at the right time and then doing something stupid.
I'll freely admit that my Silver Star came for a mission that I
shouldn't have even launched on. But, I survived, the target was hit
and a fortuitous positioning of another bird with a strike camera
provided the evidence.

I might add, though, that my SS is in the box and hasn't been thrown
over any fences. You can tell it is mine, because my name is engraved
on the back--which is what they do for presentation.

Many have been questioning the circumstances of Kerry's award, but
that isn't the point of emphasis in my criticism of the man. My gripe
is his conduct afterward which was clearly for political gain and at
the expense of a lot of his "brothers" who were defamed by his
statements.

I committed no atrocities, am guilty of no war crimes, and served
honorably for a considerably longer period of combat than Kerry.
Please don't expect me to like a man who has accused me and my friends
of the opposite.




Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Jim Yanik June 10th 04 11:58 PM

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
nk.net:


"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
.. .

Gee,what's he got to hide?


To be fair, there may be nothing to hide. But not talking about it at
all suggests there is something to hide. With the way his campaign
has been going you can bet that if he believed it would help he'd be
talking about it everywhere.




That's the way I feel;that if it were nothing bad,he's be using it.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

Pete June 11th 04 02:15 AM


"Ed Rasimus" wrote

I committed no atrocities, am guilty of no war crimes, and served
honorably for a considerably longer period of combat than Kerry.
Please don't expect me to like a man who has accused me and my friends
of the opposite.


Ed...to a lot of these people, just being there makes you guilty of a 'war
crime'.

Pete



Steven P. McNicoll June 11th 04 03:19 AM


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...

My advice is don't run for political office.


Well, not as a Republican anyway.



Cub Driver June 11th 04 11:15 AM


It shows 5 years, 4 months and 5 days service out of a six year commitment.


It's amazing what people can believe if they want to believe it.

Bush served 11 months in the reserves after he was separated from the
National Guard. He served his six years, plus seven months.

In much the same way, I served six years in the reserves after I was
separated from the U.S. Army, to complete the then-eight-year
obligation.

Your discharge comes in the mail some time later. In my case, my name
was misspelled, probably by somebody with the mental acuity of the
poster quoted above.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

George Z. Bush June 11th 04 02:59 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:22:48 -0400, "George Z. Bush"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 07:39:44 -0400, "George Z. Bush"
wrote:


Did you also know that Mr. Kerry also stupidly and recklessly risked his
men and warship to win the medals?

Isn't it hilarious how "stupidly and recklessly" impressed the awarding
authorities so much that they approved the award of a Silver Star and a
Bronze Star to him? But what do those jerks know, right? They were just
Navy captains and admirals.
George Z.

Dare we bring up LBJ's Silver Star?

When did you start needing my permission? But why do you want to compare a
Texas congressman on active duty with a 23 year old boat driver who, at that
point, had no markers out that he could call on for somebody to run
interference for him? Other than the piece of hardware that evolved,
aren't they apples and oranges? One was a field grade officer with
political clout and the other a green company grade guy. Or am I not
remembering it right?

George Z.


I think you aren't remembering it right. LBJ's service was hardly
"active duty" and the SS mission was absurd.


No argument there on either account. My point was that something like that
could and obviously did happen because the person involved had considerable
political clout and used it to get what he wanted.

My point was that medals vary. There are a lot of heroic events that
gain no award and a lot of awards that followed minimalist events.


No argument there, either. So let's take SSs, both his and yours, off the table
for discussion. Don't ask anyone to defend his and you don't need to defend
yours.

(Snip)
......My gripe is his conduct afterward which was clearly for political gain

and at
the expense of a lot of his "brothers" who were defamed by his statements.


You've articulated the views of those in opposition to his politics admirably.
Unfortunately, there are two sides to every coin and facts are only rarely
absolute. Those who agree with his politics might just as convincingly argue
that what he did was with the sincere intention of saving American lives by
getting our nation out of a war that we clearly were never going to win.

I committed no atrocities, am guilty of no war crimes, .....


If, in your entire career flying bomb-carrying combat aircraft, you ever
jettisoned your bomb load for whatever reason on other than your assigned
bona-fide target (let's say in a free fire zone), there are some who might make
the argument that you most certainly did commit either an atrocity or a war
crime if your bombs landed on innocent enemy civilians. I personally don't care
to pursue that point, but you ought not be shocked to learn that some people
might, and they're not necessarily unpatriotic because they feel that way.

.....and served honorably for a considerably longer period of combat than

Kerry.

Length of service is supposed to prove what? That your two years was worth more
than the poor sod who stepped on a land mine his first day in theater and lost
two legs and an arm? Length of service ought play no part in the equation, and
I can't help but think that you must be getting a little desperate if you feel
obliged to introduce it into the discussion.

Please don't expect me to like a man who has accused me and my friends of the

opposite.

I don't expect you to like him, and you obviously don't. That's always been
your privilege and it remains so. And it's everybody else's privilege as well.

George Z.



Ed Rasimus June 11th 04 03:04 PM

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 01:15:41 GMT, "Pete" wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote

I committed no atrocities, am guilty of no war crimes, and served
honorably for a considerably longer period of combat than Kerry.
Please don't expect me to like a man who has accused me and my friends
of the opposite.


Ed...to a lot of these people, just being there makes you guilty of a 'war
crime'.

Pete

And, those people don't mean squat to me. The ones that count are the
ones who know what went on during those times.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus June 11th 04 04:05 PM

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:59:56 -0400, "George Z. Bush"
wrote:

I committed no atrocities, am guilty of no war crimes, .....


If, in your entire career flying bomb-carrying combat aircraft, you ever
jettisoned your bomb load for whatever reason on other than your assigned
bona-fide target (let's say in a free fire zone), there are some who might make
the argument that you most certainly did commit either an atrocity or a war
crime if your bombs landed on innocent enemy civilians. I personally don't care
to pursue that point, but you ought not be shocked to learn that some people
might, and they're not necessarily unpatriotic because they feel that way.


"War crimes" need to be defined as violations of international accords
regarding the conduct of armed conflict. We can't ascribe the term to
whatever offends our particular sensibilities or suits our political
needs of the moment.

Jettisoning weapons in emergencies, for personal defense, etc, is NOT
a war crime. There is considerable difference between jettisoning a
weapons load and targeting innocents. One is acknowledged as an
unavoidable risk of a combat zone while the other is most assuredly
proscribed.

A "free-fire zone" is, in its entirety an area of unrestricted weapons
employment with only small exceptions, such as hospitals, refugee
camps, churches (religious buildings), and white flags exempt.
Delivering in a free-fire zone is not a war crime.

Certainly there are some who "might make the argument" that I "most
certainly did commit either an atrocity or a war crime (that's either
an interesting distinction or a redundancy) IF your bombs landed on
innocent enemy (oxymoron???) civilians." But making the argument isn't
following the definition of a war crime. Some might even accuse the
military of genocide or wholesale murder, but they would be employing
a despicable level of hyperbole.

The purpose of military operations is to "kill people and break
things". Doing anything less is a sure route to defeat.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Lisakbernacchia June 11th 04 04:13 PM

Subject: Two MOH Winners say Bush Didn't Serve
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 6/11/2004 7:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 01:15:41 GMT, "Pete" wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote

I committed no atrocities, am guilty of no war crimes, and served
honorably for a considerably longer period of combat than Kerry.
Please don't expect me to like a man who has accused me and my friends
of the opposite.


Ed...to a lot of these people, just being there makes you guilty of a 'war
crime'.

Pete

And, those people don't mean squat to me. The ones that count are the
ones who know what went on during those times.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Is it true that Bush hid behind his dads apron strings in Texas while Kerry was
at war?

Ed Rasimus June 11th 04 04:52 PM

On 11 Jun 2004 15:13:35 GMT, (Lisakbernacchia)
wrote:

Is it true that Bush hid behind his dads apron strings in Texas while Kerry was
at war?


Is it true that you can't read a usenet thread?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Tammy June 11th 04 05:33 PM

(OXMORON1) wrote in message ...
Tammy blurted:
I know that Kerry earned four or five medals for bravery under fire or
similar action. Does anyone know how many medals for heroism Cheney
and Bush earned. I heard that it was less than Kerry.


Did you also know that Mr. Kerry also stupidly and recklessly risked his men
and warship to win the medals? But, by gosh he secured that RPG launcher, even
if it was empty.
Plus, consider anyone who defames the Secret Service guy out there to protect
him, due to his own"skill" at snow sports, seems like a real ass who we really
need to run this country.
I also don't like his shoes! They flip flop a lot and are distracting.
Also while we are at it Hienz pickles suck!

oxmoron1
MFE


So "Heroism in battle" is the same as being stupid and reckless. But
Bush is stupid and reckless, and didn't earn any medals.

Plus, consider anyone who defames the Secret Service guy out there to protect
him, due to his own"skill" at snow sports, seems like a real ass who we really


I believe that this rumor turned out to be yet another unsubstantiated
attack job by the GOPs. Do you have a legitimate source for this?

I also don't like his shoes! They flip flop a lot and are distracting.

I've never seen his shoes. I'm more interested in what a candidate
says and does than what kind of shoes he/she wears. But maybe you are
right. Considering Bush's screwups, maybe Bush should run on his shoes
(or at least in them).

Also while we are at it Hienz pickles suck!

I think I'll agree with you on this one (although I would probably
spell it "Heinz"). I bet they taste a lot better than Bush and
Cheney's oil. Perhaps Kerry should send Bush a case of pickles.
They're a lot safer that pretzels or whatever the current euphamism
for beer is.

Lisakbernacchia June 11th 04 05:40 PM

Subject: Two MOH Winners say Bush Didn't Serve
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 6/11/2004 11:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 11 Jun 2004 15:13:35 GMT,
(Lisakbernacchia)
wrote:

Is it true that Bush hid behind his dads apron strings in Texas while Kerry

was
at war?


Is it true that you can't read a usenet thread?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"


How many Purple Hearts do you have? Is ir true you are a warrior who lost his
war?


Lisakbernacchia June 11th 04 05:42 PM

Subject: Two MOH Winners say Bush Didn't Serve
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 6/11/2004 11:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:59:56 -0400, "George Z. Bush"
wrote:

I committed no atrocities, am guilty of no war crimes, .....


If, in your entire career flying bomb-carrying combat aircraft, you ever
jettisoned your bomb load for whatever reason on other than your assigned
bona-fide target (let's say in a free fire zone), there are some who might

make
the argument that you most certainly did commit either an atrocity or a war
crime if your bombs landed on innocent enemy civilians. I personally don't

care
to pursue that point, but you ought not be shocked to learn that some people
might, and they're not necessarily unpatriotic because they feel that way.


"War crimes" need to be defined as violations of international accords
regarding the conduct of armed conflict. We can't ascribe the term to
whatever offends our particular sensibilities or suits our political
needs of the moment.

Jettisoning weapons in emergencies, for personal defense, etc, is NOT
a war crime. There is considerable difference between jettisoning a
weapons load and targeting innocents. One is acknowledged as an
unavoidable risk of a combat zone while the other is most assuredly
proscribed.

A "free-fire zone" is, in its entirety an area of unrestricted weapons
employment with only small exceptions, such as hospitals, refugee
camps, churches (religious buildings), and white flags exempt.
Delivering in a free-fire zone is not a war crime.

Certainly there are some who "might make the argument" that I "most
certainly did commit either an atrocity or a war crime (that's either
an interesting distinction or a redundancy) IF your bombs landed on
innocent enemy (oxymoron???) civilians." But making the argument isn't
following the definition of a war crime. Some might even accuse the
military of genocide or wholesale murder, but they would be employing
a despicable level of hyperbole.

The purpose of military operations is to "kill people and break
things". Doing anything less is a sure route to defeat.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"


As an expert on defeat, why did you get your ass beaten in Viet Nam?

Lisakbernacchia June 11th 04 05:45 PM

Subject: Two MOH Winners say Bush Didn't Serve
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 6/11/2004 11:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 11 Jun 2004 15:13:35 GMT,
(Lisakbernacchia)
wrote:

Is it true that Bush hid behind his dads apron strings in Texas while Kerry

was
at war?


Is it true that you can't read a usenet thread?


Ed Rasimus


Is it true that Bush hid behind his dads apron strings in Texas while Kerry was
at war? ANSWER THE QUESTION


OXMORON1 June 11th 04 05:56 PM

BuffyToU "asked"
So "Heroism in battle" is the same as being stupid and reckless.


Heroism is one thing, going against policy and beaching/grounding your boat in
an area known to have recently contained enemy troops, to recover an empty RPG
launcher is stupid and endangers your crew. This is leadership?

Oxmoron1

B2431 June 11th 04 06:01 PM

From: (Lisakbernacchia)
Date: 6/11/2004 11:45 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: Two MOH Winners say Bush Didn't Serve
From: Ed Rasimus

Date: 6/11/2004 11:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 11 Jun 2004 15:13:35 GMT,
(Lisakbernacchia)
wrote:

Is it true that Bush hid behind his dads apron strings in Texas while Kerry

was
at war?


Is it true that you can't read a usenet thread?


Ed Rasimus


Is it true that Bush hid behind his dads apron strings in Texas while Kerry
was
at war? ANSWER THE QUESTION


Why should he? You have already made up your mind despite the facts.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Ed Rasimus June 11th 04 06:08 PM

On 11 Jun 2004 16:40:05 GMT, (Lisakbernacchia)
wrote:

Is it true that you can't read a usenet thread?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"


How many Purple Hearts do you have? Is ir true you are a warrior who lost his
war?


I have no Purple Hearts. The idea is to kill or wound the enemy
without being killed or wounded yourself. You might do a quick rerun
of George C. Scott's Patton speech, pay attention to the part about
"making the other poor, dumb ******* die for his country."

I take great pride in being acknowledged as a warrior. Thank you for
that. No, I lost no wars. I returned a winner along with hundreds of
other warriors.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus June 11th 04 06:09 PM

On 11 Jun 2004 16:45:51 GMT, (Lisakbernacchia)
wrote:

Is it true that you can't read a usenet thread?


Ed Rasimus


Is it true that Bush hid behind his dads apron strings in Texas while Kerry was
at war? ANSWER THE QUESTION


No, it is not true.

For details, you might want to go back and read the thread.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

B2431 June 11th 04 06:23 PM

From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 6/11/2004 12:08 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 11 Jun 2004 16:40:05 GMT,
(Lisakbernacchia)
wrote:

Is it true that you can't read a usenet thread?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"


How many Purple Hearts do you have? Is ir true you are a warrior who lost

his
war?


I have no Purple Hearts. The idea is to kill or wound the enemy
without being killed or wounded yourself. You might do a quick rerun
of George C. Scott's Patton speech, pay attention to the part about
"making the other poor, dumb ******* die for his country."

I take great pride in being acknowledged as a warrior. Thank you for
that. No, I lost no wars. I returned a winner along with hundreds of
other warriors.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8


Ed, please make that hundreds of thousands.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Kevin Brooks June 11th 04 06:51 PM


"Lisakbernacchia" wrote in message
...
Subject: Two MOH Winners say Bush Didn't Serve
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 6/11/2004 11:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:59:56 -0400, "George Z. Bush"
wrote:

I committed no atrocities, am guilty of no war crimes, .....

If, in your entire career flying bomb-carrying combat aircraft, you ever
jettisoned your bomb load for whatever reason on other than your

assigned
bona-fide target (let's say in a free fire zone), there are some who

might
make
the argument that you most certainly did commit either an atrocity or a

war
crime if your bombs landed on innocent enemy civilians. I personally

don't
care
to pursue that point, but you ought not be shocked to learn that some

people
might, and they're not necessarily unpatriotic because they feel that

way.

"War crimes" need to be defined as violations of international accords
regarding the conduct of armed conflict. We can't ascribe the term to
whatever offends our particular sensibilities or suits our political
needs of the moment.

Jettisoning weapons in emergencies, for personal defense, etc, is NOT
a war crime. There is considerable difference between jettisoning a
weapons load and targeting innocents. One is acknowledged as an
unavoidable risk of a combat zone while the other is most assuredly
proscribed.

A "free-fire zone" is, in its entirety an area of unrestricted weapons
employment with only small exceptions, such as hospitals, refugee
camps, churches (religious buildings), and white flags exempt.
Delivering in a free-fire zone is not a war crime.

Certainly there are some who "might make the argument" that I "most
certainly did commit either an atrocity or a war crime (that's either
an interesting distinction or a redundancy) IF your bombs landed on
innocent enemy (oxymoron???) civilians." But making the argument isn't
following the definition of a war crime. Some might even accuse the
military of genocide or wholesale murder, but they would be employing
a despicable level of hyperbole.

The purpose of military operations is to "kill people and break
things". Doing anything less is a sure route to defeat.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"


As an expert on defeat, why did you get your ass beaten in Viet Nam?


He didn't. And you are hereby plonked for your demonstrated stupidity.

Brooks



Steven P. McNicoll June 11th 04 08:41 PM


"Lisakbernacchia" wrote in message
...

Is it true that Bush hid behind his dads apron strings in Texas while

Kerry was
at war?


No.



Steven P. McNicoll June 11th 04 08:42 PM


"Lisakbernacchia" wrote in message
...

Is it true that Bush hid behind his dads apron strings in Texas while

Kerry was
at war? ANSWER THE QUESTION


The answer is NO.



George Z. Bush June 11th 04 09:00 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:59:56 -0400, "George Z. Bush"
wrote:

I committed no atrocities, am guilty of no war crimes, .....


If, in your entire career flying bomb-carrying combat aircraft, you ever
jettisoned your bomb load for whatever reason on other than your assigned
bona-fide target (let's say in a free fire zone), there are some who might
make the argument that you most certainly did commit either an atrocity or a
war crime if your bombs landed on innocent enemy civilians. I personally
don't care to pursue that point, but you ought not be shocked to learn that
some people might, and they're not necessarily unpatriotic because they feel
that way.


"War crimes" need to be defined as violations of international accords
regarding the conduct of armed conflict. We can't ascribe the term to
whatever offends our particular sensibilities or suits our political
needs of the moment.

Jettisoning weapons in emergencies, for personal defense, etc, is NOT
a war crime. There is considerable difference between jettisoning a
weapons load and targeting innocents. One is acknowledged as an
unavoidable risk of a combat zone while the other is most assuredly
proscribed.

A "free-fire zone" is, in its entirety an area of unrestricted weapons
employment with only small exceptions, such as hospitals, refugee
camps, churches (religious buildings), and white flags exempt.
Delivering in a free-fire zone is not a war crime.

Certainly there are some who "might make the argument" that I "most
certainly did commit either an atrocity or a war crime (that's either
an interesting distinction or a redundancy) IF your bombs landed on
innocent enemy (oxymoron???) civilians." But making the argument isn't
following the definition of a war crime. Some might even accuse the
military of genocide or wholesale murder, but they would be employing
a despicable level of hyperbole.

The purpose of military operations is to "kill people and break
things". Doing anything less is a sure route to defeat.


Ed, I expected you to argue all of the points I posed as a matter of
self-defense, and you didn't disappoint me. The point that I was trying to
make, and it does not require a response from you, was that there are people who
don't see things the way you do, and they're not necessarily wrong just because
they differ with you.

I could argue some of the points you make, as for example your referring to
"innocent enemy (oxymoron???) civilians", by asking how you would categorize
the three day or week or month old Vietnamese infant blown apart by one of your
jettisoned weapons in his or her own home, but I'll let others more qualified
than I deal with that.

George Z.



Yeff June 11th 04 09:06 PM

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:00:09 -0400, George Z. Bush wrote:

Ed, I expected you to argue all of the points I posed as a matter of
self-defense, and you didn't disappoint me. The point that I was trying to
make, and it does not require a response from you, was that there are people who
don't see things the way you do, and they're not necessarily wrong just because
they differ with you.


But sometimes they *are* necessarily wrong. People arguing that something
is a war crime when what they're arguing about doesn't meet that definition
means those people are wrong. Period.

--

-Jeff B.
yeff at erols dot com

George Z. Bush June 11th 04 09:13 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote:
On 11 Jun 2004 16:40:05 GMT, (Lisakbernacchia)
wrote:

Is it true that you can't read a usenet thread?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"


How many Purple Hearts do you have? Is ir true you are a warrior who lost his
war?


I have no Purple Hearts. The idea is to kill or wound the enemy
without being killed or wounded yourself. You might do a quick rerun
of George C. Scott's Patton speech, pay attention to the part about
"making the other poor, dumb ******* die for his country."

I take great pride in being acknowledged as a warrior. Thank you for
that. No, I lost no wars. I returned a winner along with hundreds of
other warriors.



You lost no wars? I was under the impression that after we left that sad,
unfortunate country, the only thing we had to show for our efforts was that big,
black wall in Washington and a grievously divided nation that apparently exists
to this day. What was it that we supposedly won? We must have won something
since you claim that you didn't lose any wars. What was it?
Territory? Reparations? An indigenous Vietnamese government to our political
liking? What did we get out of it as "victors"?

George Z.



Jarg June 11th 04 09:20 PM


"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...
Ed Rasimus wrote:
On 11 Jun 2004 16:40:05 GMT, (Lisakbernacchia)
wrote:

Is it true that you can't read a usenet thread?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"

How many Purple Hearts do you have? Is ir true you are a warrior who

lost his
war?


I have no Purple Hearts. The idea is to kill or wound the enemy
without being killed or wounded yourself. You might do a quick rerun
of George C. Scott's Patton speech, pay attention to the part about
"making the other poor, dumb ******* die for his country."

I take great pride in being acknowledged as a warrior. Thank you for
that. No, I lost no wars. I returned a winner along with hundreds of
other warriors.



You lost no wars? I was under the impression that after we left that sad,
unfortunate country, the only thing we had to show for our efforts was

that big,
black wall in Washington and a grievously divided nation that apparently

exists
to this day. What was it that we supposedly won? We must have won

something
since you claim that you didn't lose any wars. What was it?
Territory? Reparations? An indigenous Vietnamese government to our

political
liking? What did we get out of it as "victors"?

George Z.



The United States certainly did not achieve our political objectives in
Vietnam. On the other hand, it is a stretch to say the US lost the war
since it won all the military actions, and left several years before North
Vietnam overran the south. Finally, if you have been to Vietnam recently,
as I have, you would be hard pressed to say they won, or it was a Pyrrhic
victory at best.

Jarg



Steve Hix June 11th 04 09:22 PM

In article ,
(Lisakbernacchia) wrote:

Subject: Two MOH Winners say Bush Didn't Serve
From: Ed Rasimus

Date: 6/11/2004 11:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 11 Jun 2004 15:13:35 GMT,
(Lisakbernacchia)
wrote:

Is it true that Bush hid behind his dads apron strings in Texas while Kerry

was
at war?


Is it true that you can't read a usenet thread?


Ed Rasimus


Is it true that Bush hid behind his dads apron strings in Texas while Kerry
was at war? ANSWER THE QUESTION


Why should he bother? You're not interested in the answer, much less
anything resembling truth.

George Z. Bush June 11th 04 09:23 PM

Yeff wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:00:09 -0400, George Z. Bush wrote:

Ed, I expected you to argue all of the points I posed as a matter of
self-defense, and you didn't disappoint me. The point that I was trying to
make, and it does not require a response from you, was that there are people
who don't see things the way you do, and they're not necessarily wrong just
because they differ with you.


But sometimes they *are* necessarily wrong. People arguing that something
is a war crime when what they're arguing about doesn't meet that definition
means those people are wrong. Period.


You might be right and you might be wrong, and putting "Period" at the end of
your comment doesn't mean that the matter's been decided. You might wish it'd
be that way, but that's not the way it works.

George Z.



Lisakbernacchia June 11th 04 09:33 PM

Subject: Two MOH Winners say Bush Didn't Serve
From: "George Z. Bush" am
Date: 6/11/2004 4:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Ed Rasimus wrote:
On 11 Jun 2004 16:40:05 GMT,
(Lisakbernacchia)
wrote:

Is it true that you can't read a usenet thread?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"

How many Purple Hearts do you have? Is ir true you are a warrior who lost

his
war?


I have no Purple Hearts. The idea is to kill or wound the enemy
without being killed or wounded yourself. You might do a quick rerun
of George C. Scott's Patton speech, pay attention to the part about
"making the other poor, dumb ******* die for his country."

I take great pride in being acknowledged as a warrior. Thank you for
that. No, I lost no wars. I returned a winner along with hundreds of
other warriors.



You lost no wars? I was under the impression that after we left that sad,
unfortunate country, the only thing we had to show for our efforts was that
big,
black wall in Washington and a grievously divided nation that apparently
exists
to this day. What was it that we supposedly won? We must have won something
since you claim that you didn't lose any wars. What was it?
Territory? Reparations? An indigenous Vietnamese government to our
political
liking? What did we get out of it as "victors"?

George Z.


They kicked our ass. Rasimus hasn't tthe guts to admit it.


Ed Rasimus June 11th 04 09:42 PM

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:13:08 -0400, "George Z. Bush"
wrote:

You lost no wars? I was under the impression that after we left that sad,
unfortunate country, the only thing we had to show for our efforts was that big,
black wall in Washington and a grievously divided nation that apparently exists
to this day. What was it that we supposedly won? We must have won something
since you claim that you didn't lose any wars. What was it?
Territory? Reparations? An indigenous Vietnamese government to our political
liking? What did we get out of it as "victors"?

George Z.


I didn't lose. My country lost a lot, but it wasn't the war. It was
pride in being an American and a fundamental belief in democracy. It
was a belief that we were morally anchored and the communists (and now
the jihadist fundamentalist muslims) were wrong. It was the firm
conviction that we were not the reason for injustice and poverty in
this world, but rather the source of a better way.

Take a look, if you choose at Vietnam today. If you see a communist
victory there, you aren't looking very closely. They are a flourishing
capitalist society. They are trading globally, entertaining tourists
from around the world, and the new version of the Hanoi Hilton--the
real hotel chain--advertises an "American breakfast" as included with
the room rate.

What did we get out of it? We changed the way we organize, train and
fight our wars. We lost one F-105 for every 65 sorties over N. Vietnam
in '66 and '67. We lost one fixed wing aircraft for every 3500 sorties
during Desert Storm. We lost one fixed wing aircraft...period, in
Iraqi Freedom for 16,500 sorties. We learned some lessons.

Stop feeling guilty, George. We're Americans and have a right to be
proud.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Jarg June 11th 04 10:04 PM

"Lisakbernacchia" wrote in message
...
Subject: Two MOH Winners say Bush Didn't Serve
From: "George Z. Bush" am
Date: 6/11/2004 4:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Ed Rasimus wrote:
On 11 Jun 2004 16:40:05 GMT,
(Lisakbernacchia)
wrote:

Is it true that you can't read a usenet thread?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"

How many Purple Hearts do you have? Is ir true you are a warrior who

lost
his
war?

I have no Purple Hearts. The idea is to kill or wound the enemy
without being killed or wounded yourself. You might do a quick rerun
of George C. Scott's Patton speech, pay attention to the part about
"making the other poor, dumb ******* die for his country."

I take great pride in being acknowledged as a warrior. Thank you for
that. No, I lost no wars. I returned a winner along with hundreds of
other warriors.



You lost no wars? I was under the impression that after we left that

sad,
unfortunate country, the only thing we had to show for our efforts was

that
big,
black wall in Washington and a grievously divided nation that apparently
exists
to this day. What was it that we supposedly won? We must have won

something
since you claim that you didn't lose any wars. What was it?
Territory? Reparations? An indigenous Vietnamese government to our
political
liking? What did we get out of it as "victors"?

George Z.


They kicked our ass. Rasimus hasn't tthe guts to admit it.


You have a very different notion of ass kicking than I do! Do a comparison
between the US and Vietnam, both during the war and today, and I think it
will be pretty clear who is on top!

Jarg




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