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-   -   Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=9683)

Ron July 10th 04 05:11 PM


One might also note the tour length for John Kerry. Do we see a trend
among political candidates to "fill the square" then leave?


Apparently there was a lot of that in Vietnam too. Just because someone went,
does not mean it was out of a nobel desire, many went for career progression
purposes. While Kerry was probably trying to emulate John Kennedy, others went
to Nam not for future political careers but to further their military career.

Heck Bush could have been sent to Vietnam (he did volunteer but was considered
too low time), and if he could have flown 50 missions and the Democrats would
be criticising him for not having flown 100, and that he would have not done so
because of his father and political influence.

Ron
PA-31T Cheyenne II
Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
Pune, India


Steven P. McNicoll July 10th 04 05:22 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

ANG pilots were direct commissioned?


No.



All of them?


None of them.



B2431 July 10th 04 05:30 PM

From: Ed Rasimus


On 10 Jul 2004 14:37:31 GMT,
(WalterM140) wrote:

Some of these people want to say Bush got no special treatment, but I don't
know of any one who ever (at least since WWII) who got lieutenant's bars
without going through OCS or some sort of officer qualification program.

Bush
went through a six week basic air man's course, and then got a commission.


The "six week basic air man's (sic) course" is OTS. The President did
what every other ANG input to USAF UPT does. He got his commission
through OTS. You might also use the correct terminology while spouting
your propaganda. The commissioning course is Officer Training School,
not Officer Training School which was the term during WW II for Army
"90 day wonders".

Um, Ed? Minor typo there. I believe the second Officer Training School was
supposed to be Officer Candidate School.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

B2431 July 10th 04 05:33 PM

From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/10/2004 11:04 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Sure, it's OTS. Does it matter how Bush got his butter bars? The fact

remains
he did.


Yes, and he got them the same way other ANG pilots got them.


ANG pilots were direct commissioned? All of them?



Walt


He went through OTS.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Ed Rasimus July 10th 04 05:34 PM

On 10 Jul 2004 16:30:15 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

From: Ed Rasimus



On 10 Jul 2004 14:37:31 GMT,
(WalterM140) wrote:

Some of these people want to say Bush got no special treatment, but I don't
know of any one who ever (at least since WWII) who got lieutenant's bars
without going through OCS or some sort of officer qualification program.

Bush
went through a six week basic air man's course, and then got a commission.


The "six week basic air man's (sic) course" is OTS. The President did
what every other ANG input to USAF UPT does. He got his commission
through OTS. You might also use the correct terminology while spouting
your propaganda. The commissioning course is Officer Training School,
not Officer Training School which was the term during WW II for Army
"90 day wonders".

Um, Ed? Minor typo there. I believe the second Officer Training School was
supposed to be Officer Candidate School.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired


Sometimes I get caught up in the moment. OCS is Officer Candidate
School.
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

B2431 July 10th 04 05:35 PM

From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/10/2004 9:45 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here.

Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one

problem.

JFKerry skipped out of his last 8 months in the war zone (after receiving
three
scratches in the line of duty).


Senator Kerry is a decorated veteran.

Bush skipped the last two years of his commitment.

Walt


Joseph "If I say it often enough it must be true" Goebbels, is that you?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

B2431 July 10th 04 05:38 PM

From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/10/2004 9:38 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

The one thing I can say about Bush, is that he was never a communist. I
can't
say the same about JFKerry. I don't vote for communists, pinko's, or listen
much
to people like you who do.


Kerry is a decorated WIA veteran. He's not a communist. Step back from the
Republican Party Kool-aid.

Walt


And the photograph of him with the Viet Cong flag DURING the war means what?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

ArtKramr July 10th 04 05:43 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/10/2004 7:38 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

The one thing I can say about Bush, is that he was never a communist. I
can't
say the same about JFKerry. I don't vote for communists, pinko's, or listen
much
to people like you who do.


Kerry is a decorated WIA veteran. He's not a communist. Step back from the
Republican Party Kool-aid.

Walt



It's just neocon bitterness from a president and vice president who ever went
to war when they damn well should have.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


ArtKramr July 10th 04 05:44 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: "D. Strang"
Date: 7/10/2004 5:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: [email protected]

"WalterM140" wrote
Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here.


Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one

problem.

JFKerry skipped out of his last 8 months in the war zone (after receiving
three
scratches in the line of duty).



More neocon bitterness.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


BUFDRVR July 10th 04 06:04 PM

Dan wrote:

He went through OTS


Actually the ANG calls it something different...at least they did in 1994 when
I went through UPT with 4 Guardsmen. Little did they know that they were
recieving special treatment. Please don't engage "Walt", he doesn't have a clue
about the military or aviation and as such is not worth your time. IMHO, "Walt"
is the worst troll I've seen here *ever*. At least Venik and the rest of the
"Serb loonies" were discussing aviation related matters....fantasy aviation,
but aviation none-the-less.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

George Shirley July 10th 04 06:12 PM

Ron wrote:
One might also note the tour length for John Kerry. Do we see a trend
among political candidates to "fill the square" then leave?



Apparently there was a lot of that in Vietnam too. Just because someone went,
does not mean it was out of a nobel desire, many went for career progression
purposes. While Kerry was probably trying to emulate John Kennedy, others went
to Nam not for future political careers but to further their military career.

Heck Bush could have been sent to Vietnam (he did volunteer but was considered
too low time), and if he could have flown 50 missions and the Democrats would
be criticising him for not having flown 100, and that he would have not done so
because of his father and political influence.

Ron
PA-31T Cheyenne II
Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
Pune, India

Most grunts referred to officers "advancing their careers" by serving a
tour or part of a tour as "getting their ticket punched." Had to get a
least some combat time for advancement. Many officers were there because
that was the only war we had at the time and war means promotions,
officer or enlisted lifer.

George


Ed Rasimus July 10th 04 06:42 PM

On 10 Jul 2004 17:04:36 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

Dan wrote:

He went through OTS


Actually the ANG calls it something different...at least they did in 1994 when
I went through UPT with 4 Guardsmen. Little did they know that they were
recieving special treatment. Please don't engage "Walt", he doesn't have a clue
about the military or aviation and as such is not worth your time. IMHO, "Walt"
is the worst troll I've seen here *ever*. At least Venik and the rest of the
"Serb loonies" were discussing aviation related matters....fantasy aviation,
but aviation none-the-less.


BUFDRVR


I was OPR at ATC-Hq from 1970-72 for "undergraduate rated assignments"
in ATC-Personnel. My office was responsible for all input to flying
training programs (UPT, UNT, UPT-H) and all graduate assignments into
the operational training pipeline. We also did the CONUS survival
school input (global at Fairchild, water at Homestead and the
"special" courses.)

We handled input from AFA, AFROTC, OTS (whether ANG, AFRES or
active-duty). That give me a bit of insight into the personnel
sequencing of pilot input during the period and the manning situation
during the drawdown period from SEA that has been in discussion.

As for feeding the trolls, I learned a long time ago that the value of
Usenet isn't in changing the mind of the trolls, but of providing
input and fact to the readers of the threads. No one is going to
communicate intelligently with Walt who simply regurgitates what he
gets from Terry McAuliffe and doesn't acknowledge being found wrong
regardless of how many people provide refutation. The statements of
fact are for the consideration of the lurkers who might otherwise find
their ideas forever corrupted with simplistic propaganda.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Steven P. McNicoll July 10th 04 07:06 PM


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

It's just neocon bitterness from a president and vice president who ever

went
to war when they damn well should have.


No American should have gone to that war.



D. Strang July 10th 04 07:27 PM

"WalterM140" wrote

Because unlike Gore
-or- Clinton, Senator Kerry served with distinction.


For 3 months.



Ed Rasimus July 10th 04 07:29 PM

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:06:51 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

It's just neocon bitterness from a president and vice president who ever

went
to war when they damn well should have.


No American should have gone to that war.


This just in. Breaking news. John Edwards didn't serve in Vietnam.
Where was he?

And, just now, I noticed the thread title. "Fighter Jets..."? The
airplanes are jet fighters. Or, simply just fighters. Or jets.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

D. Strang July 10th 04 07:34 PM

"WalterM140" wrote
Probably not since OCS is Army, not Air Force.

Next you will be telling us he never went to UPT either.


Did not/does not the Air Force have some sort of equivalent to OCS? One that
prospective second lieutenants go through?


The closest thing would be OTS Officer Training School, but you had to have a
college degree to qualify for entry. The Army built their own officers by selecting
from the enlisted ranks. When I finished OCS I had only half of my college completed
(most from night school).
..
If we wanted to go career, we were told to have a degree before eligible for Captain.
No degree, hit the road, you were RIF'd




D. Strang July 10th 04 07:39 PM

"WalterM140" wrote

Senator Kerry is a decorated veteran.


He's also an admitted war criminal (before Congress in testimony) who
says he murdered innocent civilians, and unarmed soldiers.



Jack July 10th 04 07:53 PM

ArtKramr wrote:

It's just neocon bitterness from a president and vice president who ever went
to war when they damn well should have.


Your value (substantial) to the group rests primarily on your personal
experiences of military aviation in the WW2 era. Don't dilute that by OT
posts regarding your personal prejudices. We've all got 'em, and they
all stink.

--
Jack

"Cave ab homine unius libri"

Jack July 10th 04 07:58 PM

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

No American should have gone to that war.


Wrong! No American should have been drafted to serve in SEA. The
professionals, with the proper leadership (read C in C), would have
produced quite a different outcome in far less time.

But then history may not agree with either of our claims.


--
Jack

"Cave ab homine unius libri"

D. Strang July 10th 04 08:21 PM

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote
"ArtKramr" wrote

It's just neocon bitterness from a president and vice president who ever
went to war when they damn well should have.


No American should have gone to that war.


I would disagree. While I agree the war was a failure, because the mission
was too broad: "Stop Communism." If the mission was to re-unify the country,
then we should never have cancelled the elections. The country was not a
threat to anyone, even as a Soviet client. Once we went defensive, the war
was over. The Vietnamese found out rather quickly that the Soviets were
worthless, and their relationship didn't last long after the war was over.



Scott Peterson July 10th 04 11:46 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote:

Ever wonder why you never met an active duty military
medical doctor in the grade of Lt?


Met lots of them......in the Navy.

Scott Peterson

--
I'm out of my mind, but please
wait for the tone and feel free
to leave a message...

145/586

Ed Rasimus July 11th 04 12:11 AM

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:46:36 -0700, Scott Peterson
wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote:

Ever wonder why you never met an active duty military
medical doctor in the grade of Lt?


Met lots of them......in the Navy.

Scott Peterson


Cute. Sort of like me calling transportation and identifying myself as
"Captain" on a USN installation. I suppose clear communication might
require identifying as O-1, 2, or 3. I recall standing in line
watching Academy grads (any of the three trade schools) sorting out
their dates of rank prior to getting into a vehicle. Gotta follow that
protocol thing.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Bill Shatzer July 11th 04 12:22 AM

Ed Rasimus ) writes:

-snip-

Ah, the ol' "as far as I know" escape clause. Well, after today, you
can know--Gore served 151 days of a 360 day "combat tour". He has used
the statement that "I went because if I didn't, someone else would
have had to serve in my place." A noble sentiment, but the fact is
that someone else did have to serve to complete his curtailed tour.


Well, not by much. Gore's enlistment was up in August of
1971 and they sent him home and discharged him at the end
of May. Unless he re-enlisted, there was no way he was going
to complete a one-year tour. His "early out" cut two months,
not seven, off of his tour.

'Sides, if I recall correctly, the draw-down (and "Vietnamization")
was well underway by that time and early releases were rather
common. There's every reason to assume that no one had to
complete the remaining two months - likely his position simply
wasn't filled.

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

Bill Shatzer July 11th 04 12:30 AM

Ed Rasimus ) writes:

This just in. Breaking news. John Edwards didn't serve in Vietnam.
Where was he?


In high school.

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

OXMORON1 July 11th 04 12:30 AM

Walt asked in amazement:
ANG pilots were direct commissioned? All of them?


Those getting commissions with out prior service could get a direct commission
without a formal training program.
When the Aviation Cadet Program was still in existence, a lot of ANG pilot and
nav trainees went through the program.
All it took to get a comission in the Guard during the mid 60's was 60 college
semester hours and meeting a comissioning panel, sometimes basic training was
not even required.
Basic training became a requirement about 1967. By then most states also put
their people through some kind of OCS program.
It helped if Dad was a Senator or ANG General, but it was OK if Dad was an E-7
Technician or Mom was a secretary at Group HQ. But it was not manditory, a
sharp troop with a good record and test taking capability had a good chance.

Rick Clark

D. Strang July 11th 04 12:37 AM

"Ed Rasimus" wrote
Scott Peterson wrote:
Ed Rasimus wrote:

Ever wonder why you never met an active duty military
medical doctor in the grade of Lt?


Met lots of them......in the Navy.


Cute. Sort of like me calling transportation and identifying myself as
"Captain" on a USN installation. I suppose clear communication might
require identifying as O-1, 2, or 3. I recall standing in line
watching Academy grads (any of the three trade schools) sorting out
their dates of rank prior to getting into a vehicle. Gotta follow that
protocol thing.


I remember queuing up for a C-141 ride to Panama. This LtCol came
out and told us that the Officers would get on first so they could pick the
best seats, and the enlisted would get on second. I remember our First-Sgt
bark out "Wrong!" You almost can visualize the LtCol swaying backwards
and the Sgt said "Protocol has the lowest rank getting on first into any
vehicle." Without skipping a beat the LtCol barked out "Officers
first, enlisted second, and First-Sgt's last."



Brett July 11th 04 12:51 AM

"D. Strang" wrote:
"Ed Rasimus" wrote
Scott Peterson wrote:
Ed Rasimus wrote:

Ever wonder why you never met an active duty military
medical doctor in the grade of Lt?

Met lots of them......in the Navy.


Cute. Sort of like me calling transportation and identifying myself as
"Captain" on a USN installation. I suppose clear communication might
require identifying as O-1, 2, or 3. I recall standing in line
watching Academy grads (any of the three trade schools) sorting out
their dates of rank prior to getting into a vehicle. Gotta follow that
protocol thing.


I remember queuing up for a C-141 ride to Panama. This LtCol came
out and told us that the Officers would get on first so they could pick

the
best seats,


There are no "best seats" in a C-141 (or is/was there a VIP pallet qualified
for use on the aircraft).




D. Strang July 11th 04 12:59 AM

"Brett" wrote
"D. Strang" wrote:
"Ed Rasimus" wrote
Scott Peterson wrote:
Ed Rasimus wrote:

Ever wonder why you never met an active duty military
medical doctor in the grade of Lt?

Met lots of them......in the Navy.

Cute. Sort of like me calling transportation and identifying myself as
"Captain" on a USN installation. I suppose clear communication might
require identifying as O-1, 2, or 3. I recall standing in line
watching Academy grads (any of the three trade schools) sorting out
their dates of rank prior to getting into a vehicle. Gotta follow that
protocol thing.


I remember queuing up for a C-141 ride to Panama. This LtCol came
out and told us that the Officers would get on first so they could pick

the
best seats,


There are no "best seats" in a C-141 (or is/was there a VIP pallet qualified
for use on the aircraft).


I'm pretty much with you on that! It seemed the officers always wanted the
six seats on the last row at the back of the plane (leg room). I really didn't care
for a seat, as I would straggle back to the cargo and lay on top of a pallet for
a nap. Some loadmasters didn't like it, but most didn't give you a hard time.



Mike Marron July 11th 04 01:09 AM

Ed Rasimus wrote:

And, just now, I noticed the thread title. "Fighter Jets..."? The
airplanes are jet fighters. Or, simply just fighters. Or jets.


That was always a pet peeve of mine as well (nobody ever
says "Fighter Props.")

Another one is "motor" instead of "engine."

Ed Rasimus July 11th 04 01:28 AM

On 10 Jul 2004 23:22:54 GMT, (Bill Shatzer)
wrote:

Ed Rasimus ) writes:

-snip-

Ah, the ol' "as far as I know" escape clause. Well, after today, you
can know--Gore served 151 days of a 360 day "combat tour". He has used
the statement that "I went because if I didn't, someone else would
have had to serve in my place." A noble sentiment, but the fact is
that someone else did have to serve to complete his curtailed tour.


Well, not by much. Gore's enlistment was up in August of
1971 and they sent him home and discharged him at the end
of May. Unless he re-enlisted, there was no way he was going
to complete a one-year tour. His "early out" cut two months,
not seven, off of his tour.

'Sides, if I recall correctly, the draw-down (and "Vietnamization")
was well underway by that time and early releases were rather
common. There's every reason to assume that no one had to
complete the remaining two months - likely his position simply
wasn't filled.


Sorry, Bill, but that simply isn't so. While "early outs" were
becoming available for a few specialties as early as '71, the policy
didn't apply to overseas tours which were strictly controlled.

The only exception would be unit relocations, but not individuals.
When the 469th TFS shut down at the end of FY '72, there were no early
outs or early rotations back to CONUS. My second tour went from June
of '72 to July of '73 with no availability of curtailment.

And, you really might want to look up the duration of Mr. Gore's
overseas assignment.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

B2431 July 11th 04 01:36 AM

From: "D. Strang"
Date: 7/10/2004 6:59 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id: rp%[email protected]

"Brett" wrote
"D. Strang" wrote:
"Ed Rasimus" wrote
Scott Peterson wrote:
Ed Rasimus wrote:

Ever wonder why you never met an active duty military
medical doctor in the grade of Lt?

Met lots of them......in the Navy.

Cute. Sort of like me calling transportation and identifying myself as
"Captain" on a USN installation. I suppose clear communication might
require identifying as O-1, 2, or 3. I recall standing in line
watching Academy grads (any of the three trade schools) sorting out
their dates of rank prior to getting into a vehicle. Gotta follow that
protocol thing.

I remember queuing up for a C-141 ride to Panama. This LtCol came
out and told us that the Officers would get on first so they could pick

the
best seats,


There are no "best seats" in a C-141 (or is/was there a VIP pallet

qualified
for use on the aircraft).


I'm pretty much with you on that! It seemed the officers always wanted the
six seats on the last row at the back of the plane (leg room). I really
didn't care
for a seat, as I would straggle back to the cargo and lay on top of a pallet
for
a nap. Some loadmasters didn't like it, but most didn't give you a hard time.


If the 141 or 130 had the side troop seats I'd wait until enough people went to
go find places to lie down or stretch out. I'd push the seat belts back and the
seats would make rather comfortable cots.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Jim Thomas July 11th 04 01:49 AM

George Shirley wrote in message news:
Most grunts referred to officers "advancing their careers" by serving a
tour or part of a tour as "getting their ticket punched." Had to get a
least some combat time for advancement. Many officers were there because
that was the only war we had at the time and war means promotions,
officer or enlisted lifer.

And why is this a bad thing? I'd venture to say that most of the
officers who volunteered to serve in SEA did so, not to save the USA
from the Communist hordes, but because it was, indeed, "the only war
we had"; going to war, if required, was what we all signed to do; and
yes, anyone who expected to make a career as a warrior needed to prove
that he could be one. If this is "ticket punching", then I'm guilty.

Jim Thomas

George Shirley July 11th 04 02:04 AM

Jim Thomas wrote:
George Shirley wrote in message news:

Most grunts referred to officers "advancing their careers" by serving a
tour or part of a tour as "getting their ticket punched." Had to get a
least some combat time for advancement. Many officers were there because
that was the only war we had at the time and war means promotions,
officer or enlisted lifer.


And why is this a bad thing? I'd venture to say that most of the
officers who volunteered to serve in SEA did so, not to save the USA
from the Communist hordes, but because it was, indeed, "the only war
we had"; going to war, if required, was what we all signed to do; and
yes, anyone who expected to make a career as a warrior needed to prove
that he could be one. If this is "ticket punching", then I'm guilty.

Jim Thomas


I probably should have paragraphed between the ticket punchers and the
officer volunteers Jim. I had no problem with the majority of them, just
the ones who showed up, stayed the minimum time in a safe area and "got
their ticket punched."

A lot of my friends volunteered to go because that was their profession
and they wanted to be where the action was. There were a great many very
good officers and senior NCO's over there for the "only war we had." For
those folks it wasn't ticket punching, it was a love of the profession
of arms and the career they chose. If you were one of them good for you.

George


BUFDRVR July 11th 04 02:19 AM

Ed Rasimus wrote:

The statements of
fact are for the consideration of the lurkers who might otherwise find
their ideas forever corrupted with simplistic propaganda.


I understand this Ed, but its really killing this newsgroup.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

BUFDRVR July 11th 04 02:26 AM

Ed Rasimus wrote:

Cute. Sort of like me calling transportation and identifying myself as
"Captain" on a USN installation.


I took full advantage of that on my one month tour on the USS Theodore
Roosevelt. Unbelievable the attention and service you get when you call up and
identify yourself as "Captain X from the MAAP cell" ;)


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Regnirps July 11th 04 03:10 AM

(ArtKramr) wrote:

It's just neocon bitterness from a president and vice president who ever went
to war when they damn well should have.


You know, I didn't either. Mayby that's why I can't stand Thurston Howell the
Third and his new Gilligan. Jeeze, he even has a wife who outdoes "Lovey". I'm
not crazy about Bush, and I can understand someone hating him. I CAN'T
understand hating Bush and liking Kerry.

-- Charlie Springer


Steven P. McNicoll July 11th 04 03:13 AM


"Jack" wrote in message
...

Wrong! No American should have been drafted to serve in SEA. The
professionals, with the proper leadership (read C in C), would have
produced quite a different outcome in far less time.


No, I'm not wrong. No American should have gone to that war. The US
shouldn't have assisted France in reclaiming it's colony after WWII. After
four years of German occupation the French should have learned something
about oppression.



Steven P. McNicoll July 11th 04 03:25 AM


"D. Strang" wrote in message
news:f4%[email protected]

I remember queuing up for a C-141 ride to Panama. This LtCol came
out and told us that the Officers would get on first so they could pick

the
best seats, and the enlisted would get on second.


Getting the best seats would require them to displace the flight crew. The
C-141 was a great airplane, but a good ride it wasn't.



Ian MacLure July 11th 04 05:27 AM

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
nk.net:

"Ian MacLure" wrote in message
...

Safety wasn't the problem. Drag was. The F-102 was supposed to be
a supersonic aircraft but wasn't good for much beyond Mach 1.


That would make it a supersonic aircraft.


Yes strictly speaking I suppose it would however just barely.
Mach 1.3 or so?

Area ruling and an increase in power gave us the F-106, easily
capable of Mach 2.


The F-102A was area ruled.


Seems I had the development history confabulated with the
operational versions. Couldn't find the reference that talked
the development issues which (IIRC) included area ruling to
deal with unexpectedly high drag

IBM

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
The Worlds Uncensored News Source


Bill Shatzer July 11th 04 05:31 AM

Ed Rasimus ) writes:

-snip-

Sorry, Bill, but that simply isn't so. While "early outs" were
becoming available for a few specialties as early as '71,


Well, certainly much earlier than that. Heck -I- got an "early out"
in the summer of '67 which cut almost three full months of my
enlistment.

the policy
didn't apply to overseas tours which were strictly controlled.


I seem to recall a couple members of my unit who received "early
outs" which not only cut their enlistment terms but also were
granted in advance of their scheduled DROS cutting a month or
so off their scheduled RVN tours. But, it was a long time ago,
perhaps I misremember.

The only exception would be unit relocations, but not individuals.
When the 469th TFS shut down at the end of FY '72, there were no early
outs or early rotations back to CONUS. My second tour went from June
of '72 to July of '73 with no availability of curtailment.


Perhaps the Air Force policy on such things was different than
that of the US Army?

And, you really might want to look up the duration of Mr. Gore's
overseas assignment.


Everything I've seen sez it was early January, '71 through late
May, '71 with a scheduled discharge date of August 5, '71.

You have information to the contrary?

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"


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