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-   -   VFR Flight Following -- What's going on here? (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=29233)

Matt Barrow June 21st 05 10:03 PM


"Newps" wrote in message
...


Ron Natalie wrote:


I've had radar facilities chase me down after I've lost comms with them
during VFR FF. They want to make sure they didn't lose you and
something bad happened to you (like you crashed). Just consider it
an extra service.


It is a required service. If they lose you unexpectedly ATC is required
to start a search. In Jay's case he was cruising merrily along, asked
to switch to Flight Watch and then disappeared.


Sounds like something from "The Twilight Zone".




Matt Barrow June 21st 05 10:06 PM


"Gig 601XL Builder" [email protected] wrote in message
news:[email protected]

"John Clonts" wrote in message
ups.com...
Are you a Center controller? If so e-mail me off list I have a question



Why not post it here?


Because it is not a question I choose to ask online and would probably be

of
no interest to the group as a whole.


Sexual proclivities?



Jay Honeck June 21st 05 10:46 PM


How would *you* have handled it?


What I do when this happens is to stay on the freq. an wait until
some airliner overhead talks to the controller (be it Center or
Approach). Snip


Nowadays make a call on 121.5. There's a million aircraft listening
there these days. Some aircraft will hear you and relay the message.


Thanks for the suggestion. Is that considered a legitimate use of
121.5? I have been under the impression that 121.5 was reserved for
emergencies only.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


Steven P. McNicoll June 21st 05 10:50 PM


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...

Thanks for the suggestion. Is that considered a legitimate use of
121.5? I have been under the impression that 121.5 was reserved for
emergencies only.


ZAU apparently considered it an emergency.



Gig 601XL Builder June 21st 05 10:55 PM


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...

How would *you* have handled it?

What I do when this happens is to stay on the freq. an wait until
some airliner overhead talks to the controller (be it Center or
Approach). Snip


Nowadays make a call on 121.5. There's a million aircraft listening
there these days. Some aircraft will hear you and relay the message.


Thanks for the suggestion. Is that considered a legitimate use of
121.5? I have been under the impression that 121.5 was reserved for
emergencies only.
--



Well ATC thought it was enough of an emergency to send the airport manager
out to find you. I think a 10 sec message on GUARD would be better than the
wasted effort which could hav easily turned into a full out SAR call out.



Chris G. June 21st 05 10:56 PM

Newps wrote:
FSDO is not the right place to call. Call your local TRACON or Center.


Actually, the FSDO in Hillsboro, Oregon, was VERY helpful. There is no
need to bug the tracon or center with this question. They're busy
making sure planes get to where they need to be.

Chris

PS, your name is? :)

Chris G. June 21st 05 11:01 PM

The local FSDO helped me quite a bit in finding the references I need.
Look in FAA Order 7110.65 Para. 10-2-5 (2b). I've quoted it for your
convenience and the link is provided. It references Jay's specific
situation.
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp10/atc1002.html#10-2-5

Chris G.


10-2-5. EMERGENCY SITUATIONS
Consider that an aircraft emergency exists and inform the RCC or ARTCC
and alert the appropriate DF facility when:
NOTE-
1. USAF facilities are only required to notify the ARTCC.
2. The requirement to alert DF facilities may be deleted if radar
contact will be maintained throughout the duration of the emergency.
a. An emergency is declared by either:
1. The pilot.
2. Facility personnel.
3. Officials responsible for the operation of the aircraft.
b. There is unexpected loss of radar contact and radio
communications with any IFR or VFR aircraft.
c. Reports indicate it has made a forced landing, is about to do
so, or its operating efficiency is so impaired that a forced landing
will be necessary.
d. Reports indicate the crew has abandoned the aircraft or is about
to do so.
e. An emergency radar beacon response is received.
NOTE-
EN ROUTE. During Stage A operation, Code 7700 causes EMRG to blink
in field E of the data block.
f. Intercept or escort aircraft services are required.
g. The need for ground rescue appears likely.
h. An Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) signal is heard or reported.
REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Providing Assistance, Para 10-1-3.
FAAO 7110.65, Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) Signals, Para
10-2-10.


Chris G. wrote:
I have placed a call to the local FSDO for the exact regulations
governing this, but I speak from experience, having been a State SAR
Coordinator backup for the State of Oregon a few years ago.

Chris


Peter Duniho wrote:

"Chris G." [email protected] wrote in message
eenews.net...

The way the SAR system works is that once the FAA has radar contact
with you and are providing radar services, they will continue to do
so unless they are unable (due to lack of radar coverage) or you
cancel them. If you fall below their radar coverage while utilizing
their services, then they begin the SAR process.




I have never seen any documentation of this claim, for VFR aircraft.
My understanding is that the scenario in this thread was motivated
solely at the discretion of the controller, that there is no automatic
search and rescue for abnormally terminated flight following, and that
only a VFR flight plan guarantees a search and rescue attempt for
missing VFR flights.

Can you provide a reference to something that supports the idea that
airplanes getting VFR flight following are given automatic search and
rescue if they somehow are "lost" from the controller (either radio or
radar contact lost)?

Thanks,
Pete


Ron Natalie June 22nd 05 01:31 AM

Ben Hallert wrote:
How? If they have to rely on primary radar alone, then how could they
reasonably be sure they were watching the plane they thought they were?

By watching the blip. I've flown into Dulles with only a receiver
and primary radar return (turns for identification and to indicate
our intents). I've also departed Dulles with comms but with no
transponder while the primary radar is out. ATC can be resourceful
when they have to be.

john smith June 22nd 05 03:21 AM

Ben Hallert wrote:
How? If they have to rely on primary radar alone, then how could they
reasonably be sure they were watching the plane they thought they were?


Ron Natalie wrote:
By watching the blip. I've flown into Dulles with only a receiver
and primary radar return (turns for identification and to indicate
our intents). I've also departed Dulles with comms but with no
transponder while the primary radar is out. ATC can be resourceful
when they have to be.


Not in the last year, was it! :-))
I thought the Governor of KY was the last to receive that service.

Matt Barrow June 22nd 05 03:23 AM


"Chris G." [email protected] wrote in message
eenews.net...
Newps wrote:
FSDO is not the right place to call. Call your local TRACON or Center.


Actually, the FSDO in Hillsboro, Oregon, was VERY helpful. There is no
need to bug the tracon or center with this question. They're busy
making sure planes get to where they need to be.


And the FSDO is likely to give you four different answers from three
different FS specialists.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO




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