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Phoenixmotoman December 6th 10 08:34 PM

tso altimeter
 
I want to install a Winter 4FGH 40 altimeter with an EASA Form 1
certificate in my S-LSA motorglider with the Becker TSO'd
transponder. My avionics shop says that the altimeter must be TSO'd
as well. Can anyone cite FAA regulations about this issue? Any
information would be welcome.

Tim Mara December 6th 10 09:23 PM

tso altimeter
 
the Winter 4FGH40 is TSO'd, that's what the EASA Form one is and says
so.....certifed the same as and accepted here in the USA the same as they
accept our approvals
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com



"Phoenixmotoman" wrote in message
...
I want to install a Winter 4FGH 40 altimeter with an EASA Form 1
certificate in my S-LSA motorglider with the Becker TSO'd
transponder. My avionics shop says that the altimeter must be TSO'd
as well. Can anyone cite FAA regulations about this issue? Any
information would be welcome.




Darryl Ramm December 6th 10 09:44 PM

tso altimeter
 
On Dec 6, 12:34*pm, Phoenixmotoman wrote:
I want to install a Winter 4FGH 40 altimeter with an EASA Form 1
certificate in my S-LSA motorglider with the Becker TSO'd
transponder. *My avionics shop says that the altimeter must be TSO'd
as well. *Can anyone cite FAA regulations about this issue? *Any
information would be welcome.


Since they are saying this did you ask them why?

Your avionics shop may be mixing up requirements in 14CFR 91.411 for
IFR aircraft that require detailed altimeter testing and either you
have to do that testing or you can use a TSO'ed altimeter to meet the
same requirement. But that 14CFR 91.411 requirement overall should not
apply to you unless you are flying IFR...

If this is an experiential aircraft then you the altimeter
requirements should be pretty simple (I'd be surprised if anything
there would ever require a TSOed altimeter - you tell me). Adding a
transponder does not change things too much. Transponder requirements
are outlined in 14CFR 91.215 (which says the transponder must meet
certain requirements as outlined in one of several possible TSOs)
nothing about altimeters there. And 14CFR 91.413 requires altimeter
systems tests outlined in paragraph (c) of Part 43 Appendix E. And
that little paragraph is just about the only altimeter related things
with transponders most of us ever need to worry about... here it is...

"(c) Automatic Pressure Altitude Reporting Equipment and ATC
Transponder System Integration Test. The test must be conducted by an
appropriately rated person under the conditions specified in paragraph
(a). Measure the automatic pressure altitude at the output of the
installed ATC transponder when interrogated on Mode C at a sufficient
number of test points to ensure that the altitude reporting equipment,
altimeters, and ATC transponders perform their intended functions as
installed in the aircraft. The difference between the automatic
reporting output and the altitude displayed at the altimeter shall not
exceed 125 feet."

---

Are you talking about a new Mode C transponder or existing one? If a
new one why install a Becker Mode C when the Trig TT21 Mode S is
available? Seriously, bad choice, if it is new return it and swap it
for a Trig TT21. The T21 uses less power, is more compact, easier to
install and more importantly provides a future to ADS-B 1090ES data-
out -- something nice for people adopting a PowerFLARM as it lets
other PowerFLARM receivers see you directly over long distances (much
longer then FLARM-FLARM) and will enable the PowerFLARM to provide ADS-
B capabilities like ADS-R and TIS-B (which you won't reliably receive
unless you have an ADS-B transmitter).

Darryl

John Smith December 6th 10 11:00 PM

tso altimeter
 
Am 06.12.10 22:23, schrieb Tim Mara:
the Winter 4FGH40 is TSO'd, that's what the EASA Form one is and says
so.....


Just to nitpick: EASA Form 1 is just what it's called: a form. The form
per se doesn't mean an instrument is TSOed, it can as well be written on
the form that it isn't. However, in practice, you're correct: An
instrument usually only comes with a Form 1 when it's TSOed.

EASA Form 1 is the equivalent of FAA Form 8130-3. The USA and EASA
country mutually acknowledge each other's form.

Andy[_1_] December 7th 10 02:07 AM

tso altimeter
 
On Dec 6, 2:23*pm, "Tim Mara" wrote:
the Winter 4FGH40 is TSO'd, that's what the EASA Form one is and says
so.....certifed the same as and accepted here in the USA the same as they
accept our approvals



The TSO for altimeter, pressure actuated, sensitive type, is C10b. I
have a Winter 4FGH40 in my sailplane . It was recently returned from
Winter after overhaul with an EASA Form 1. Nowhere on that form, or
in any Winter spec, can I find a statement that the Winter 4FGH40
complies with TSO C10b.

Tim, please give me a reference to a Winter spec that claims TSO C10b
compliance.

My form 1 in this case merely certifies that the work done (overhaul)
was accomplished in accordance with FAR-145 and the work item is
satisfactory for release to service.

As to the OP's question - I know of no requirement for your altimeter
to be TSO compliant. Get your avionics shop to show the regulation,
and if they can't take your work somewhere else.

Andy

Rex December 7th 10 05:48 AM

tso altimeter
 
I would look into the requirements for LSA aircraft. I do not believe
LSA aircraftt are required to have TSO'd equipment of any type. ALso
many aircraft manufacturers list approved equipment. Most of the
European manufacturers include the Becker and Winter equipment. This
is considered approval data.
Rex

John Smith December 7th 10 10:05 AM

tso altimeter
 
Am 07.12.10 03:07, schrieb Andy:
The TSO for altimeter, pressure actuated, sensitive type, is C10b. I
have a Winter 4FGH40 in my sailplane . It was recently returned from
Winter after overhaul with an EASA Form 1. Nowhere on that form, or
in any Winter spec, can I find a statement that the Winter 4FGH40
complies with TSO C10b.


My form 1 in this case merely certifies that the work done (overhaul)
was accomplished in accordance with FAR-145 and the work item is
satisfactory for release to service.


Which is how the form 1 works. If a manufactorer sells a new instrument
with a form 1, then the TSO norm to which the instrument complies (if
any) is written to that form. If you get an instrument overhauled, then
that form 1 says that is has been overhauled according to the
regulations by a repair shop with a license (if so), and nothing more.
The new form 1 doesn't replace the older.

Winter sells both TSOed and not TSOed altimeteres. As you can guess,
they differ heavily in price (you get about three non-TSOed for one
TSOed). Looking at the price, the 4FGH40 seems to be TSOed. But if you
want to know, why don't you just send a mail to Winter and ask? Winter
tends to be pretty responsive, at least so has been my experience.

Andy[_1_] December 7th 10 01:24 PM

tso altimeter
 
On Dec 6, 7:07*pm, Andy wrote:

My form 1 in this case merely certifies that the work done (overhaul)
was accomplished in accordance with FAR-145 and the work item is
satisfactory for release to service.


Sorry, typing error, it certifies JAR-145 not FAR-145 compliance.


Mike Schumann December 7th 10 01:47 PM

tso altimeter
 
On 12/7/2010 5:05 AM, John Smith wrote:
Am 07.12.10 03:07, schrieb Andy:
The TSO for altimeter, pressure actuated, sensitive type, is C10b. I
have a Winter 4FGH40 in my sailplane . It was recently returned from
Winter after overhaul with an EASA Form 1. Nowhere on that form, or
in any Winter spec, can I find a statement that the Winter 4FGH40
complies with TSO C10b.


My form 1 in this case merely certifies that the work done (overhaul)
was accomplished in accordance with FAR-145 and the work item is
satisfactory for release to service.


Which is how the form 1 works. If a manufactorer sells a new instrument
with a form 1, then the TSO norm to which the instrument complies (if
any) is written to that form. If you get an instrument overhauled, then
that form 1 says that is has been overhauled according to the
regulations by a repair shop with a license (if so), and nothing more.
The new form 1 doesn't replace the older.

Winter sells both TSOed and not TSOed altimeteres. As you can guess,
they differ heavily in price (you get about three non-TSOed for one
TSOed). Looking at the price, the 4FGH40 seems to be TSOed. But if you
want to know, why don't you just send a mail to Winter and ask? Winter
tends to be pretty responsive, at least so has been my experience.


Are there any physical differences between the TSOed and non-TSOed
versions, or are you just paying extra for the paperwork?

--
Mike Schumann

Tim Mara December 7th 10 05:31 PM

tso altimeter
 
If it is for use with a Transponder then the TSO is a
requirement....Transponders are TSO (only) installations and the requirement
for the TSO also is in connection with the altimeter....providing it is for
altitude reporting transponders (mode C)
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"Rex" wrote in message
...
I would look into the requirements for LSA aircraft. I do not believe
LSA aircraftt are required to have TSO'd equipment of any type. ALso
many aircraft manufacturers list approved equipment. Most of the
European manufacturers include the Becker and Winter equipment. This
is considered approval data.
Rex

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