He seems to think that use of an M2 is
a war crime.

It apparently is.

I can well remember hearing that use of the M2 against troops is not allowed.
However, use of the M2 against equipment -is- allowed. We were advised to
shoot at enemy troops' belt buckles, as that -was- equipment.

This was done in a Law of War brief prior to us deploying to Desert Storm.

Walt

"WalterM140" wrote
This documet shows conclusively that Bush performed no service for
16 months:

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc10.gif


It does not show that he was AWOL.


No, you have to draw that inference yourself.

AWOL is a violation of the UCMJ, you don't infer it, there are
records.

"WalterM140" wrote
Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.

Who by his own admission in sworn Senate testimony was personally
guilty of committing war crimes and atrocities as well as personally
observing them in his role as a commissioned officer yet not doing
anything to stop them.

Can you source some back up of that statement?

Go read his congressional testimony. He is responsible for all Vietnam
war veterans being referred to as "baby killers." He coined the term, and
smeared all Veterans. He is a communist. Compare his dream of America
with that of Ho Chi Minh's dream for Vietnam. They are identical.

"WalterM140" wrote
Vice [sic] President Bush is the issue, and the only issue.


Why isn't Kerry the issue?

Kerry's military records are complete. Bush's are not.

Ancient history for either of them. Bush isn't a communist.

"WalterM140" wrote

This was done in a Law of War brief prior to us deploying to Desert Storm.

What unit were you in, and what city in Saudi did your unit go?

"Bill Shatzer" wrote in message
...

Basically crap, Steven. Army Regulations re the Purple Heart:

(b) Individuals wounded or killed as a result of
"friendly fire" in the "heat of battle" will be
awarded the Purple Heart as long as the "friendly"
projectile or agent was released with the full
intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy
troops or equipment.

I'd assume the Navy regulations are essentially similar.



There apparently was no battle to be in the heat of.



In any case, if I recall correctly, it was freakin' -impossible-
to wound oneself by firing an M-79 round "too close".


Kerry's experience suggests otherwise.

"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Prove he didn't earn all three.


The following letter appeared in the USA Today "Letters" section on June
25th last, page 8A:



Criticism of Kerry's Purple Heart is just

Retired U.S. army colonel David Hackworth defends presidential
candidate John Kerry's Purple Hearts. He correctly notes that they are
awarded for a wound that necessitates treatment by a medical officer and
that is received in action with an enemy ('The meaning of a Purple Heart,"
The Forum, June 16).

I was the commanding officer to whom Kerry reported his injury on Dec.
3, 1968. I had confirmed that there was no hostile fire that night and that
Kerry had simply wounded himself with an M-79 grenade round he fired too
close. He wanted a Purple Heart, and I refused. Louis Letson, the base
physician, saw Kerry and used tweezers to remove the tiny piece of
shrapnel - about 1 centi*meter in length and 2 millimeters in di*ameter.
Letson also confirmed that the scratch was inflicted with our M-79.

We admire Col. Hackworth, but he, above all people, knows why it is
unac*ceptable to nominate yourself for an award. It compromises the basic
military principle that we survive together. To promote yourself is to
denigrate your team. I hope Col. Hackworth will rethink his characterization
of Kerry's swift-boat comrades as "grousers" passing on "secondhand bilge."
In our case, this is firsthand knowledge, and our integrity is unquestioned.

Kerry orchestrated his way out of Viet*nam and then testified, under
oath, be*fore Congress that we, his comrades, had committed horrible war
crimes. This tes*timony was a lie and slandered honor*able men. We, who were
actually there, believe he is unfit to command our sons and daughters.

Grant Hibbard, retired commander US. Navy, Gulf Breeze, Fla.

Louis Letson, M.D. Retired lieutenant commander Medical Corps, US. Navy
Reserve Scottsboro, Ala.

"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

No, you have to draw that inference yourself.


I wouldn't draw that inference. No rational person would.

"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Kerry's military records are complete. Bush's are not.


So what?

(I find, interestingly enough, that kill-filing these people almost
always results in 1 message being deleted. Evidently they are fakes.
Take a look at steven's email address, for example.)

Propagandists have no interest in being identified.

Still, it *is* fun (and, usually, pathetically easy) to debunk them...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In rec.aviation.owning Cub Driver wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:45:07 -0700, "NW_PILOT"
wrote:
If there is an election
this year I will be very surprised.

Oh yes, I forgot. The black helicopters will swoop in and take over
Washington. Is that before or after the draft is reinstated?

Of course, NW_PILOT's assesment is a litte alarmist, however
(interestingly enough), we presently DO have black helicopters patrolling
the Washington airspace and harassing general aviation. So, you never
know.



--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

WalterM140 wrote:

...Bush 41 stumbled into an unneccesary war in the Gulf....

That's even wider of the mark than the usual newsgroup drivel. The "Gulf
War" was more necessary than the great majority of the military actions
in which the US has engaged since 1953.


...we're bankrupting ourselves....

But not because of the Iraq war, that's for sure.


...the intellgence community is in a shambles....

The Intelligence Community has _been_ in a shambles for decades. It's a
well known fact, and the problems of entrenched influence and lack of
leadership on the issue are widely recognized. It takes a big, big push
to make such changes, and that historically happens only after some
major debacle.

We've simply gotten the "leadership" we deserve.



Jack

ArtKramr wrote:

...Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.

So are you and any number of people on this newsgroup. It doesn't seem
to be a factor which produces a lack of bias, nor protects one against
an excess of narrow ambition.

A presidential candidate is only as good as the people who support him.
From what I've seen of the people who are rabid supporters of either of
the major candidates, this year's vote is going to be a difficult choice
for folks who are just trying to avoid the greater evil.



Jack

Steve Mellenthin wrote:

I am not ready just yet to be
called a paleocon.

Ur-Con?


Jack

ubject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Jack
Date: 7/13/2004 7:51 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.

So are you and any number of people on this newsgroup. It

I was never a hero. I never did a single heroic thing.I was a 19 year old kid.
I flew my missions doing what I was trained to do. As we all did, And kept
flying those misssions until the war ended. Then I went home. Let's not make
more of it than it is.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 12 Jul 2004 20:09:25 -0700, (Sam Byrams)
wrote:


He's certainly under no obligation to fly after his service
agreement, the point is _he didn't do that_. They got less than a year
and a half out of their half-million dollar investment (in 1972).

George Bush entered Texas ANG service in 1968. Went to UPT in '69,
qualified in the Deuce in '70 and stopped flying in '72 when his unit
was transitioning to F-101s and he did not have adequate retainability
to justify requal.

And
tell me someone in his position with his quals would have got the deal
he got if his father hadn't been a war hero congressman. Apparently
his UPT performance should have put him in multi or helos: and
normally someone without specifically in demand attributes should have
had to go active duty to get UPT at that time anyway. Yes, that's as I
understand it and no, I wasn't there.

Glad you admit that it is as you understand it and you weren't there.
Now, listen carefully. Bush went to UPT as a TANG member. He would fly
the equipment of his unit if he completed the course. He was not in
competition for assignment USAF-wide. He was not in competition for
assignment with the other students in training. He was going to fly
the F-102 in the unit that he was a member of.


I'm waiting for someone to prove
to me he could have got that commission and training slot with his
academics in the National Guard at that time if his name had been Joe
Bagodonuts. I was thirteen years old when he went to UPT, old enough
to remember public sentiment was rapidly turning against the war-and
bitterly so-even in Dogpatch USA.

In '68 (not '72) public sentiment was divided. Bush got his training
slot when production for UPT was as high as it had been historically
since WW II. UPT was expanding from eight to eleven bases and capacity
at each site was increased. We were up to more than 5000 per year
input to UPT from all sources. (I was director of ATC Student Officer
Rated Assignments from 1970 to April 1972 and managing the program.)

As far as not being able to afford to fly-my neighbor drives a UPS
truck and he bought a Decathlon, cash, in February. He's trying to get
me to sign off on a top overhaul he wants to do, since I'm an A&P. I'm
not about to, and since I haven't used my ticket in fifteen years
(since I got it) it wouldn't be legal anyway. But in America the
middle class can fly if they want to.

My point was not that I can't fly, but that I'm under no obligation to
fly. Flying general aviation doesn't appeal to me. But, simply because
I haven't exercised my aeronautical rating in 15 years doesn't mean it
never existed. Sort of like your A&P.

My Presidential vote isn't going to count anyway since my state is
not remotely up for grabs and it's a winner-take-all state.

Since 48 out of 50 states are "winner-take-all" Electoral College
votes, your reasoning should get everyone to give up voting.

It would seem to this political scientist (BS, MPS, MSIR) that the
closeness of the last election in so many states would indicate that
the value of every citizen's vote is critically important.


They both suck. If I voted on pure principle I couldn't even vote
Libertarian-although they're closer. Kerry might really screw things
up so bad people would have to pull their heads out and in the long
run, like a dope bust,it might be beneficial for an addict.

If you can't differentiate between the basic ideological positions of
the two parties, you shouldn't vote. Good choice.


Dr. Joe Bagadonutz, the wealthy proctologist buys a Mustang or even
a
MiG-17 and successfully takes off and lands. He isn't, by any stretch
of the imagination, a fighter pilot. He isn't really, even that lesser
level, a pilot who flies fighters. He's simply an accident waiting to
happen.

He's equally likely to kill himself in a Bonanza for that matter.

The initial post was about flying "fighters". Yes, Bonanzas are
notorious for applying the principles of Darwin to doctors.


And the civil warjet guys are killing
themselves at a rate that would have embarrassed the Air Force during
the glory days of "Every Man A Tiger".

Excuse me, but you obviously haven't read "Every Man A Tiger." It's
about Chuck Horner as the Air Component Commander of Desert Storm. The
lead-in chapters about Gen. Horner's early days flying F-105s in
Rolling Thunder are anything but glory days.

The phrase far predates that book. It was the grinder call in the 50s
era USAF and I can remember my uncle-who went through the air cadet
program in the 50s-talking about it. Hated the culture of USAF where
Fighter Pilots were gods-he was a C-133/C-130 pilot who dropped dead
six weeks after retiring from TWA at 60 as a four striper.

With all due respect to your uncle, we never won a war by hauling more
trash than the enemy. Trash haulers help, but only because they
provide the warriors at the pointy end of the spear with the bombs,
beans and bullets to kill the enemy.

(And a
Navion owner-I took my O&P on it,and he would have let me take my
instrument rating checkride in it too,but the glideslope died and he
left it that way.) Herbert Molloy Mason's book on early 70s era UPT
mentions it in passing, disparagingly, as having been replaced by
"Professionalism". Great T-38 photos. Made me really, really envy
Chuck Thornton (until I met the prick).

Haven't seen Mason't book, but if he thinks the "Tiger" attitude got
replaced by something less, he's sadly mistaken. Warriors are
professionals, but they'd better have a healthy dose of attitude.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Sam Byrams wrote:

I know what the statistics are, and I don't
care. I suspect Bush Jr's motives were the same
booze, pussy and kerosene!

As a former fighter pilot (or "pilot who flew fighters", compared to
guys like Ed, et al) I wish to disassociate myself from that remark.

It was JP-4, Pussy, and booze -- in that order and with appropriate
nomenclature and capitalization, please.


Jack

Ed Rasimus wrote:

"No, asshole. The biggest ego blast in the world is walking away
from the jet, sweat-soaked and drained, looking back at the bird
and saying, '**** you. You could have killed me, but you didn't.'
And, knowing that you do something every day that most other humans
don't even begin to conceive of.

and:

"Those square-ass Gulfstream and Lear crews" aren't even
part of the equation.


And _that_ is the truth!



Jack

Sam Byrams wrote:


But in America the middle class can fly if they want to.

It's just a matter of priorities.

I bought a 30-year old sailplane so I could afford to fly a little
cheaper. Not everybody wants to make that sharp a turn from
single-seat-jet fighter/big-airliner-left-seat to unobtrusive cheap
little go-nowhere, carry-nothing quiet little aircraft, of course.

I recommend Ed and others try it. It's the most actual flying you've
been called upon to do since you safed-up your last gun switch, or
taxied in and shut down after your last engine-out at-or-below minimums
instrument approach at night in a snowstorm.

You'll freakin' love it!


Jack

Sam Byrams wrote:

[Dr. Joe Bagadonutz is] equally likely to kill himself in a Bonanza for that matter.

Not quite.

Even most Dr.s aren't convinced they can fly a MIG or any real fighter
-- or at least aren't so willing to disprove it. The Bonanza isn't that
tough, after all -- so it's a damn' good thing they are leaving the
fighters, for the most part, alone.

Hell, my Dad owned and flew a Bonanza, and he was only a Major League
baseball player, with a high school education. ;)


Jack

Regnirps ) writes:
(B2431) wrote:

The "embellishments" are REQUIRED. They are called "devices." If I were still
active duty an was not wearing the V on my bronze star or oakleaves on my
purple heart, good conduct, longevity etc, stars on my national defense and
SEA
sevice medal I would have been out of uniform.

Yes, the devices embellish the medal.

My grandfather received his in the mail in 1935. I guess he was out of uniform
for a looong time.

Not at all. The medal was re-created in 1932 in honor of the 200th
anniversary of Washington's birth. Sometime there after, it was
decided to retroactively award the medal to all personnel who had
been awarded "wound stripes" in WW1.

1935 sounds about right for the retroactive award. Prior to
that, he'd only be out of uniform if he failed to wear the
wound stripe.

Cheers,

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

"Steven P. McNicoll" ) writes:
"Bill Shatzer" wrote in message
...

Basically crap, Steven. Army Regulations re the Purple Heart:

(b) Individuals wounded or killed as a result of
"friendly fire" in the "heat of battle" will be
awarded the Purple Heart as long as the "friendly"
projectile or agent was released with the full
intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy
troops or equipment.

I'd assume the Navy regulations are essentially similar.

There apparently was no battle to be in the heat of.

Assumed but not proven. In any case irrelevant if the folks
-thought- they were in a battle.

You think those folks in the Bradley who got zapped by a blue
on blue Maverick didn't get PHs? There was no -real- battle,
they were just motoring along when the A-10 mistook them for
a T-72 or whatever. The A-10 driver -thought- it was a battle.

In any case, if I recall correctly, it was freakin' -impossible-
to wound oneself by firing an M-79 round "too close".

Kerry's experience suggests otherwise.

"Purported" experience. The things have to cover a minimum
distance before they arm themselves and that distance is
sufficient to place the shooter outside of the blast/shrapnel
radius.

I recall one story from the vietnam conflict where an army
surgeon got written up for removing an unexploded M-79 round
from an ARVN trooper. -He- got shot by friendly fire but the
round hadn't traveled far enough to arm itself.

Cheers,


--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

In article , Jack wrote:

Sam Byrams wrote:

[Dr. Joe Bagadonutz is] equally likely to kill himself in a Bonanza
for that matter.

Not quite.

Even most Dr.s aren't convinced they can fly a MIG or any real fighter
-- or at least aren't so willing to disprove it. The Bonanza isn't that
tough, after all -- so it's a damn' good thing they are leaving the
fighters, for the most part, alone.

Hell, my Dad owned and flew a Bonanza, and he was only a Major League
baseball player, with a high school education. ;)

Yah, but was it a V-tail Bonanza?
That has the rep as the unforgiving GA ship, probably due to lack of training.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:38:46 -0500, D. Strang wrote:

[snip]

Pretty typical stuff, that killed a lot of troops who weren't so lucky.
I know four guys in two tours, who have their name on the wall, who
killed themselves doing stuff this stupid.

And willfully stupid at that.
You try telling them to stop before somebody gets killed
and see what thanks you get for it.

IBM

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On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:07:11 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

This documet shows conclusively that Bush performed no service for
16 months:

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc10.gif


It does not show that he was AWOL.


No, you have to draw that inference yourself.

No, thats not quite true.
Thats the inference YOU WANT folks to draw.
In fact you belabo(u)r the point into insensibility.
Trouble is your thory doesn't hold up under scrutiny.
Tough noogies.

IBM

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On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:10:05 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

Vice [sic] President Bush is the issue, and the only issue.


Why isn't Kerry the issue?

Kerry's military records are complete. Bush's are not.

So, thousands of records have been lost in fires,
transit, during media conversion, etc.
The regular US Navy was evidently more careful about
its records than the ANG. So what?
And what credence can we palce in Kerry's records
when we know that at least some of the details are
not correct.

IBM

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On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:13:25 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

He seems to think that use of an M2 is
a war crime.

It apparently is.

I can well remember hearing that use of the M2 against troops is not allowed.
However, use of the M2 against equipment -is- allowed. We were advised to
shoot at enemy troops' belt buckles, as that -was- equipment.

Smells like BS to me.
Its a distinction only a lawyer could love.

IBM

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Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 7/12/2004 3:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On 12 Jul 2004 22:09:50 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: "D. Strang"
Date: 7/12/2004 2:52 PM Pacific Standard Time

Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.

But he said he murdered innocent women and children.

So did I. I was a bombardier over Europe.So what? Kerry at least had a
shred
of honesty to admit it..

Let me try to construct a parallel between your experiences and mine,
so that we can possibly find a common ground to understand the
animosity I might feel.

You were a bombardier in B-26s over Europe. You went and fought and
stayed the course. You completed fifty missions.

Now, let's take someone in B-26s. Let's make it an aircraft
commander--not simply a crew-member, but a commander of the vehicle.
Let's say he had some minor injuries. Nothing serious. No
hospitalization, no lost limbs, no surgery. Just injuries. He opted
out of completing his tour. Lemme see, four months out of a one year
tour, so let's say he flew 17 missions out of the 50. Then he went
home. The rest of you on his crew slogged on without him.

But, when he got home, he didn't wear his decorations proudly and
support his brothers in arms still fighting the war that their nation
asked them to fight. He abandoned his uniform and spoke out against
the war. He went still further. He went to Congress, stood before the
US Senate and said that you and he had been guilty of war crimes. That
you had all committed atrocities. That you were rapists, baby-killers
and violators of the Geneva convention. Would he be exhibiting
"honesty to admit it"?

The German propaganda machine embraced his statements. Publicized them
and called him courageous. Would you? Would the other members of your
crew? Would you call him a hero?

Do you see a parallel here?

Meanwhile, your father, who fought valiantly for his country in WW I
(or the Spanish-American War) or whatever, began to speak out against
FDR. Accusing him of being a wealthy child of privilege who never wore
the uniform and dragged his country into WW II for his own benefit and
under false pretenses. That while Japan did attack us, the Germans did
no such thing and we were dragged into the conflict for no good
reason. Way too many were dying in Europe for the benefit of the
French who never liked us anyway. Besides, the war had dragged on much
too long and we ought to get rid of him.

Do you see a parallel here?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8


Yes I see the paralell. And I can't disagree with anything you said. And I
understand your feelings in the matter and share many of them However there may
be some other issues worth considering When I flew my missions over western
Europe I bombed many cities And as I saw my bombs explode on the ground I
wondered how many children were down there.How many woman. I also strafed from
down on the deck and could plainly see woman and children in my line of fire.
That is not easy to forget. It still comes to me in the night even after 60
years. It comes to many of us that way. For example the bombardier on the Enola
Gay became a priest in Japan. But we all knew that WW II had tot be fought no
matter what the cost. And while the guilt lingers, we can live with it But Viet
Nam was another matter entirely. There were more quetions than answers. More
doubts that convictions and many doubted the war in every sense. Kerry did.
His guilt was something he had to taken action aginst. And while I would never
throw my medals away as he did, I can understand him but not agree with him.
And when it comes to the deaths of innocents I can understand his feelings in
the matter just as I can understand yours.
But you and I and Kerry know all too well what the elephant looks like. And we
are just a small breed apart vis-a-vis those who have never seen the beast.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:23:46 -0500, D. Strang wrote:

[snip]

AWOL is a violation of the UCMJ, you don't infer it, there are
records.

You'd think so wouldn't you.
Walty and his Dimmocreep buddies have however constructed
their castle in the air which while disturbing is OK I
suppose. Taking up residence therein is grounds to question
their mental integrity.

IBM

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On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:51:55 +0000, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

No, you have to draw that inference yourself.


I wouldn't draw that inference. No rational person would.

HINT
Walty isn't rationale. He's a broken record Dumbocreep.
/HINT

IBM

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Harry Andreas wrote:

Yah, but was it a V-tail Bonanza?

Of course, though he was a reasonably debonair sort, for a guy from Toledo.

That has the rep as the unforgiving GA ship, probably due to lack of training.

Oh please -- other than a little perceived yaw problem which may or may
not have been the fault of the forked tail -- it was and is just like
any other clean airplane.

Some airplanes are willing to ignore bad technique more than others --
just like some wives -- but none of them will ignore bad judgment.



Jack

The medal was re-created in 1932

As a bit of trivia, Douglas MacArthur got the first one. The backside is
engraved with a Number One. Mac also got the first Silver Star, which replaced
the citation star representing a mention in dispatches. He was big on medals
and reworked a lot of the old award system when he became Army CoS.


Chris Mark

hey, what's wrong with my e-mail address it is a valid e-mail & I am the
owner of the domain that I use when I post on UseNet and a few other places
ware spam originates and I can filter it.


"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:45:07 -0700, "NW_PILOT"
wrote:

If there is an election
this year I will be very surprised.

Oh yes, I forgot. The black helicopters will swoop in and take over
Washington. Is that before or after the draft is reinstated?

Control K!

(I find, interestingly enough, that kill-filing these people almost
always results in 1 message being deleted. Evidently they are fakes.
Take a look at steven's email address, for example.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

"ian maclure" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:07:11 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

This documet shows conclusively that Bush performed no service for
16 months:

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc10.gif


That document is a complete forgery!!! Hell, the forger didn't even know the
proper format for military dates.


--
If you really want to save the
environment, support a family farmer.

Brooks Gregory

Jack wrote:

Harry Andreas wrote:

Yah, but was it a V-tail Bonanza?

Of course, though he was a reasonably debonair sort, for a guy from Toledo.

I suspect that one will go over (or under as the case may be) the heads of most
here, this being a military aviation newsgroup. Too bad. I used to go flying with
a buddy in a '61? Model 33 that his club owned, and he loved it, but compared to a
150/172 who wouldn't?

My personal favorite for transportation and sightseeing was another club's Cardinal
RG -- you had a great view downwards with no struts or wheels in the way, AND you
could see traffic above/in the turn direction because of the highly sloped
windscreen/aft-mounted wing. Possibly my opinion may be biased - AFAIR I could
never pry his hands off the Beech's controls so I could fly it, while I was usually
able to get some stick time in the RG;-) The Cardinal's great view seemed rather
important after one of my buddy's fellow club members (a CFI) and her student had a
head-on mid-air in a 172 as they climbed out of Oakland, with an inbound Cherokee
Six descending to enter the pattern -- they were presumably in each other's blind
spot. It may be that the Cardinal's better forward and upward view would have been
irrelevant in that particular case (if the Cessna was still climbing steeply), but
there was no doubt whatsoever how much easier it was in the Cardinal to look for
traffic you might be turning towards while in the pattern.

Guy

But Viet
Nam was another matter entirely. There were more quetions than answers. More
doubts that convictions and many doubted the war in every sense. Kerry did.
His guilt was something he had to taken action aginst. And while I would
never
throw my medals away as he did, I can understand him but not agree with him.
And when it comes to the deaths of innocents I can understand his feelings in
the matter just as I can understand yours.
But you and I and Kerry know all too well what the elephant looks like. And
we
are just a small breed apart vis-a-vis those who have never seen the beast.


Arthur Kramer

Art, I understand all that too as you would expect. On the other hand, that
sort of behavior as his and especially his association with Jane Fonda cost
lives by encouraging the enemy. My ass was on the line literally while she was
being photographed sitting in the chair of a 37 or 57mm AAA gun and I only
wished one of our bombs had reached her. There are far better ways to express
one's opposition to a war than to rub **** in the faces of the guys who had to
face those guns on a daily basis. I am absolutely certain you would react the
same way had an American done likewise on a German AAA peice in the ETO.

So I have some very serious misgivings about John Kerry, his judgement, and his
true reasons for his wartime and post wartime behavior. I've no doubt that his
behavior encouraged the enemy just as Fonda's did. Then to seemingly discard
his medals as he did regardless of whether he earned them, only to later
display them proudly and allow others to play off his herosim, devotion to duty
and loyalty to his men is totally unconscionable to me.

Regardless of whether GWB was AWOL or not, at least none of his actions
discredited the nation and its warriors. But then we elected Clintion so I
guess duty, honor and country only matter to a few of us.

Steve



Just as in Iraq the beheadings draw far more publicity because they are
plastered all over the front page of the world's newspapers.

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
...
That while Japan did attack us, the Germans did
no such thing and we were dragged into the conflict for no good
reason.

In WWII Germany declared war on the US befor the US reciprocated.
Germany attacked US shipping befor we fired a shot at them.

Many other argumetns can be made but please, let's make them
within the context of historical reality.

--

FF

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (Fred the Red Shirt)

The more missions you fly, the more times you get wounded the slimmer the
chances of survival are. But you know that, don't you?



Arthur Kramer

Guess it is all a matter of how committed you are and how important you
think
the job is you have been assigned to do

It has nothing to do with any of that. The more missions you fly the worse the
odds of survival. How commited you are is irrelevant.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

snip

Many other argumetns can be made but please, let's make them
within the context of historical reality.

Get a clue! Ed was making a fictitious example.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"