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-   -   Two MOH Winners say Bush Didn't Serve (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=9357)

WalterM140 June 5th 04 11:36 AM

Two MOH Winners say Bush Didn't Serve
 
2 Democrats: Bush Let Guard Down
Gore Surrogates Revive Issue of Apparent Laxity in Candidate's Military Service

By George Lardner Jr. and Howard Kurtz
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, November 3, 2000; Page A22


Two high-profile surrogates for Vice President Gore, in an 11th-hour attempt to
exploit a dormant issue, yesterday castigated George W. Bush over allegations
that he did not fulfill some of his National Guard duties in the 1970s.



Democratic Sens. Bob Kerrey (Neb.) and Daniel Inouye (Hawaii), both Medal of
Honor winners, were drafted to attack Bush on a 27-year-old controversy that
the Gore campaign has avoided mentioning until now. They spoke by phone to a
veterans rally in Nashville led by Sen. Max Cleland (D-Ga.), a decorated
Vietnam veteran. Reporters were invited to listen by conference call.

Bush says he fulfilled all his obligations as a pilot in the Air National
Guard, but he has had difficulty rebutting charges that he played hooky for a
year.

"Where were you, Governor Bush?" Inouye asked. "What about your commitment?
What would you do as commander in chief if someone in the Guard or service did
the same thing?"

Kerrey questioned how Bush immediately got into the Guard "even though there
were 500 people ahead of him" at a time when "350 Americans were dying every
single week in Vietnam." Kerrey has been drawing a sharp contrast with Gore,
who served in Vietnam.

Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer called the attacks "the final throes of a campaign
that has now lost any semblance of decency. The governor, of course, was
honorably discharged, and these are inventions and fabrications. All the
questions have been answered."

But Gore spokesman Mark Fabiani said the senators "seem to have raised some
very important questions . . . that deserve an answer."

Bush signed up with the Texas National Guard for six years in May 1968, which
allowed him to avoid the Vietnam draft. He became an F-102 pilot in 1970 but
made his last flight in April 1972 before moving to Alabama to work on a GOP
Senate campaign. The dispute centers on what he did in the Guard between that
point and September 1973, when he entered Harvard Business School.

Bush campaign officials say their evidence shows that he did his duty in
1972-73, when he worked for six months on the Senate race in Alabama and then
returned to his home base outside Houston. But other documents in his Guard
record contradict that claim, and critics who have examined that record contend
that he also skimped on his obligations in 1973-74. It is safe to say that Bush
did very light duty in his last two years in the Guard and that his superiors
made it easy for him.

The personnel officer in charge of Bush's 147th Fighter Group, now-retired Col.
Rufus G. Martin, says he tried to give Bush a light load, telling him to apply
to the 9921st Air Reserve Squadron in Montgomery, Ala.

Martin said in an interview that he knew Bush wasn't eligible for the 9921st,
an unpaid, general training squadron that met once a week to hear lectures on
first aid and the like. "However," he said, "I thought it was worth a try. . .
.. It was the least participation of any type of unit." But Air Force Reserve
officials rejected the assignment, saying Bush had two more years of military
obligations and was ineligible for a reserve squadron that had nothing to do
with flying airplanes. Bush spokesman Dan Bartlett said Bush didn't know that
when he applied.

Bush had been notified that he needed to take his annual flying physical by his
26th birthday in July 1972, but the move to Alabama made that unnecessary. He
had been trained to fly F-102 fighter-interceptors, and none of the units in
Alabama had those planes. He could have taken the physical to preserve his
pilot's status but chose not to do so. "Because he wasn't flying," Bartlett
said.

On Aug. 1, 1972, Bush's commander in Houston, Col. Bobby W. Hodges, ordered him
grounded for "failure to accomplish annual medical examination." Some critics
say this should have triggered a formal board of inquiry, but Hodges said in an
interview that this was unnecessary because Bush accepted the penalty and knew
"he couldn't fly again until he takes a physical."

"It happens all the time," Hodges said of the grounding. "That is normal when a
Guardsman is out of state or out of the country."

In September, Bush was assigned to another Alabama unit, the 187th Tactical
Reconnaissance Group. Since "Lieutenant Bush will not be able to satisfy his
flight requirements with our group," the unit told him to report for
"equivalent training"--such as debriefing pilots--on the weekends of Oct. 7-8
and Nov. 4-5, 1972.

There is no evidence in his record that he showed up on either weekend. Friends
on the Alabama campaign say he told them of having to do Guard duty, but the
retired general who commanded the 187th, William Turnipseed, and his personnel
chief, Kenneth K. Lott, say they do not remember Bush ever reporting.

The Bush campaign points to a torn piece of paper in his Guard records, a
statement of points Bush apparently earned in 1972-73, although most of the
dates and Bush's name except for the "W" have been torn off.

According to the torn Air Reserve Forces sheet, Bush continued to compile
service credits after returning to Houston, winding up his fifth year with 56
points, six above the minimum needed for retention. However, Bush's annual
effectiveness report, signed by two superiors, says "Lt. Bush has not been
observed at this unit during the period of the report," May 1, 1972, to April
30, 1973.

Hodges also said he did not see Bush at the Texas base again after Bush left
for Montgomery. "If I had been there on the day[s] he came out, I would have
seen him," Hodges said.





TekTeam26 June 5th 04 02:01 PM

Let's clarify this a bit. What the writer MEANT to say what that two DEMOCRATIC
PARTY politicians who just happened to have been awarded the Medal of Honor
have once again criticized President Bush's service in the Air National Guard.
The emphasis should not be that they won the Medal of Honor because there are
likely quite a few of the living holders of that medal who are not criticizing
President Bush's service in the Air National Guard. But as DEMOCRATIC PARTY
politicians, the two Senators have a powerful vested interest in criticizing a
Republican president if even the remotest possibility exists to do so.

Jerry Hall

RobbelothE June 5th 04 02:24 PM

First, what does the Medal of Honor have to do with politics? Nothing.

Second, we're talking about only two people. That's 2 out of 132 surviving
medal winners from WW2, Korea and Vietnam. If you do the math, that's 1.5
percent! Hardly a thought-provoking statistic.

If you were to poll the others, you may be shocked at the statistics. I know of
one locally who supports the President.

Ed
"If an enemy power is bent on conquering you, and proposed to
turn all of his resources to that end, he is at war with you;
and you -- unless you contemplate surrender -- are at war with
him." --Barry Goldwater


Ed Rasimus June 5th 04 04:40 PM

On 05 Jun 2004 13:01:19 GMT, ospam (TekTeam26)
wrote:

Let's clarify this a bit. What the writer MEANT to say what that two DEMOCRATIC
PARTY politicians who just happened to have been awarded the Medal of Honor
have once again criticized President Bush's service in the Air National Guard.
The emphasis should not be that they won the Medal of Honor because there are
likely quite a few of the living holders of that medal who are not criticizing
President Bush's service in the Air National Guard. But as DEMOCRATIC PARTY
politicians, the two Senators have a powerful vested interest in criticizing a
Republican president if even the remotest possibility exists to do so.

Jerry Hall


And the dateline is the Spring of 2000---four years ago!

Lots of information has been added since then and the Gore campaign
surrogates have pretty much disappeared from the political scene.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

WalterM140 June 5th 04 08:02 PM

Let's clarify this a bit. What the writer MEANT to say what that two
DEMOCRATIC
PARTY politicians who just happened to have been awarded the Medal of Honor...


People don't just "happen" to be awarded the MOH.

Try again.

Walt



WalterM140 June 5th 04 08:02 PM

First, what does the Medal of Honor have to do with politics? Nothing.

Second, we're talking about only two people. That's 2 out of 132 surviving
medal winners from WW2, Korea and Vietnam. If you do the math, that's 1.5
percent! Hardly a thought-provoking statistic.


That's pitiful.

Walt

W. D. Allen Sr. June 5th 04 08:18 PM

Let's get something straight!

Whether George Bush "served" in the Air National Guard or not, today he has
almost three years experience as wartime Commander-In Chief of the greatest
military force in history of mankind, which John Kerry does NOT have!
Kerry's four months of dodging bullets and mooching medals hardly qualifies
as military Command-In-Chief experience, which is the job in question, not
being patrol boat commander!

Those two MOH winners cited need to get a sense of proportion, especially
Bob Kerrey who has been so blatantly partisan at political blame laying
while a member of that appalling 9/11 "Star Chamber" Congressional
Commission!

So either get it right or forget it!

WDA

end



"WalterM140" wrote in message
...
2 Democrats: Bush Let Guard Down
Gore Surrogates Revive Issue of Apparent Laxity in Candidate's Military

Service

By George Lardner Jr. and Howard Kurtz
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, November 3, 2000; Page A22


Two high-profile surrogates for Vice President Gore, in an 11th-hour

attempt to
exploit a dormant issue, yesterday castigated George W. Bush over

allegations
that he did not fulfill some of his National Guard duties in the 1970s.



Democratic Sens. Bob Kerrey (Neb.) and Daniel Inouye (Hawaii), both Medal

of
Honor winners, were drafted to attack Bush on a 27-year-old controversy

that
the Gore campaign has avoided mentioning until now. They spoke by phone to

a
veterans rally in Nashville led by Sen. Max Cleland (D-Ga.), a decorated
Vietnam veteran. Reporters were invited to listen by conference call.

Bush says he fulfilled all his obligations as a pilot in the Air National
Guard, but he has had difficulty rebutting charges that he played hooky

for a
year.

"Where were you, Governor Bush?" Inouye asked. "What about your

commitment?
What would you do as commander in chief if someone in the Guard or service

did
the same thing?"

Kerrey questioned how Bush immediately got into the Guard "even though

there
were 500 people ahead of him" at a time when "350 Americans were dying

every
single week in Vietnam." Kerrey has been drawing a sharp contrast with

Gore,
who served in Vietnam.

Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer called the attacks "the final throes of a

campaign
that has now lost any semblance of decency. The governor, of course, was
honorably discharged, and these are inventions and fabrications. All the
questions have been answered."

But Gore spokesman Mark Fabiani said the senators "seem to have raised

some
very important questions . . . that deserve an answer."

Bush signed up with the Texas National Guard for six years in May 1968,

which
allowed him to avoid the Vietnam draft. He became an F-102 pilot in 1970

but
made his last flight in April 1972 before moving to Alabama to work on a

GOP
Senate campaign. The dispute centers on what he did in the Guard between

that
point and September 1973, when he entered Harvard Business School.

Bush campaign officials say their evidence shows that he did his duty in
1972-73, when he worked for six months on the Senate race in Alabama and

then
returned to his home base outside Houston. But other documents in his

Guard
record contradict that claim, and critics who have examined that record

contend
that he also skimped on his obligations in 1973-74. It is safe to say that

Bush
did very light duty in his last two years in the Guard and that his

superiors
made it easy for him.

The personnel officer in charge of Bush's 147th Fighter Group, now-retired

Col.
Rufus G. Martin, says he tried to give Bush a light load, telling him to

apply
to the 9921st Air Reserve Squadron in Montgomery, Ala.

Martin said in an interview that he knew Bush wasn't eligible for the

9921st,
an unpaid, general training squadron that met once a week to hear lectures

on
first aid and the like. "However," he said, "I thought it was worth a try.

.. .
. It was the least participation of any type of unit." But Air Force

Reserve
officials rejected the assignment, saying Bush had two more years of

military
obligations and was ineligible for a reserve squadron that had nothing to

do
with flying airplanes. Bush spokesman Dan Bartlett said Bush didn't know

that
when he applied.

Bush had been notified that he needed to take his annual flying physical

by his
26th birthday in July 1972, but the move to Alabama made that unnecessary.

He
had been trained to fly F-102 fighter-interceptors, and none of the units

in
Alabama had those planes. He could have taken the physical to preserve his
pilot's status but chose not to do so. "Because he wasn't flying,"

Bartlett
said.

On Aug. 1, 1972, Bush's commander in Houston, Col. Bobby W. Hodges,

ordered him
grounded for "failure to accomplish annual medical examination." Some

critics
say this should have triggered a formal board of inquiry, but Hodges said

in an
interview that this was unnecessary because Bush accepted the penalty and

knew
"he couldn't fly again until he takes a physical."

"It happens all the time," Hodges said of the grounding. "That is normal

when a
Guardsman is out of state or out of the country."

In September, Bush was assigned to another Alabama unit, the 187th

Tactical
Reconnaissance Group. Since "Lieutenant Bush will not be able to satisfy

his
flight requirements with our group," the unit told him to report for
"equivalent training"--such as debriefing pilots--on the weekends of Oct.

7-8
and Nov. 4-5, 1972.

There is no evidence in his record that he showed up on either weekend.

Friends
on the Alabama campaign say he told them of having to do Guard duty, but

the
retired general who commanded the 187th, William Turnipseed, and his

personnel
chief, Kenneth K. Lott, say they do not remember Bush ever reporting.

The Bush campaign points to a torn piece of paper in his Guard records, a
statement of points Bush apparently earned in 1972-73, although most of

the
dates and Bush's name except for the "W" have been torn off.

According to the torn Air Reserve Forces sheet, Bush continued to compile
service credits after returning to Houston, winding up his fifth year with

56
points, six above the minimum needed for retention. However, Bush's annual
effectiveness report, signed by two superiors, says "Lt. Bush has not been
observed at this unit during the period of the report," May 1, 1972, to

April
30, 1973.

Hodges also said he did not see Bush at the Texas base again after Bush

left
for Montgomery. "If I had been there on the day[s] he came out, I would

have
seen him," Hodges said.







Jarg June 5th 04 08:43 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...
2 Democrats: Bush Let Guard Down
Gore Surrogates Revive Issue of Apparent Laxity in Candidate's Military

Service


and you would believe them? How does receiving the Medal of Honor better
qualify them to pass judgement on anything? Bravery in combat doesn't
translate to superior analytical abilities. Furthermore they are, as the
title "2 Democats...." notes, Democrat politicians, and therefore their
views on this matter are going to be suspect to any reasonable person. Here
is a more balance analysis of Bush's service. Note it isn't from one of the
fringe publications you like to quote:

http://web.archive.org/web/200012022....com/bush.html

Jarg



George Z. Bush June 5th 04 09:16 PM

WalterM140 wrote:
Let's clarify this a bit. What the writer MEANT to say what that two
DEMOCRATIC
PARTY politicians who just happened to have been awarded the Medal of
Honor...


People don't just "happen" to be awarded the MOH.

Try again.

Walt


You failed to mention that they both had won their MOHs long before they became
politicians. It was merely a credit to their good sense that those brave men
chose to become Democratic politicians.

George Z.



Jarg June 5th 04 09:22 PM

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...
WalterM140 wrote:
Let's clarify this a bit. What the writer MEANT to say what that two
DEMOCRATIC
PARTY politicians who just happened to have been awarded the Medal of
Honor...


People don't just "happen" to be awarded the MOH.

Try again.

Walt


You failed to mention that they both had won their MOHs long before they

became
politicians. It was merely a credit to their good sense that those brave

men
chose to become Democratic politicians.

George Z.



True, Democrat politicians have the advantage of representing poor thinkers,
so that was sensible given their limited reasoning abilities. Makes
reelection more likely.

But winning the Medal of Honor doens't indicate good sense. Bravery, yes.
Good sense, questionable.

Jarg



Lyle June 5th 04 10:33 PM

On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 19:43:22 GMT, "Jarg"
wrote:


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...
2 Democrats: Bush Let Guard Down
Gore Surrogates Revive Issue of Apparent Laxity in Candidate's Military

Service


and you would believe them? How does receiving the Medal of Honor better
qualify them to pass judgement on anything? Bravery in combat doesn't
translate to superior analytical abilities. Furthermore they are, as the
title "2 Democats...." notes, Democrat politicians, and therefore their
views on this matter are going to be suspect to any reasonable person. Here
is a more balance analysis of Bush's service. Note it isn't from one of the
fringe publications you like to quote:

http://web.archive.org/web/200012022....com/bush.html

Jarg

most of the medal of honor winners in the Korean war were Medics. so i
would agree with you their. Just because you won the MOH dosent make
you fit to lead troops into combat. I know a pacifist who was a medic
in world war 2 cause he could not take another life, so he choose to
save them instead, but you should hear some of the war time stories
he's told. I may not want to follow him into combat, but i know that
if i was ever wounded, he would go to hell and back to save me.

Steve Hix June 6th 04 05:22 AM

In article ,
Lyle wrote:

On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 19:43:22 GMT, "Jarg"
wrote:


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...
2 Democrats: Bush Let Guard Down
Gore Surrogates Revive Issue of Apparent Laxity in Candidate's Military

Service


and you would believe them? How does receiving the Medal of Honor better
qualify them to pass judgement on anything? Bravery in combat doesn't
translate to superior analytical abilities. Furthermore they are, as the
title "2 Democats...." notes, Democrat politicians, and therefore their
views on this matter are going to be suspect to any reasonable person. Here
is a more balance analysis of Bush's service. Note it isn't from one of the
fringe publications you like to quote:

http://web.archive.org/web/200012022....com/bush.html

Jarg

most of the medal of honor winners in the Korean war were Medics. so i
would agree with you their. Just because you won the MOH dosent make
you fit to lead troops into combat. I know a pacifist who was a medic
in world war 2 cause he could not take another life, so he choose to
save them instead, but you should hear some of the war time stories
he's told. I may not want to follow him into combat, but i know that
if i was ever wounded, he would go to hell and back to save me.


Desmond Doss, by any chance?

Cub Driver June 6th 04 11:05 AM


Whether George Bush "served" in the Air National Guard or not,


He most certainly did. I looked at this as hard as I could, and I
concluded that his military service was longer than mine, more
dangerous than mine, and more useful to the country.

(It was also more fun, but then that's what being an officer is all
about.)

http://www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

WalterM140 June 6th 04 01:14 PM

Let's get something straight!

Whether George Bush "served" in the Air National Guard or not, today he has
almost three years experience as wartime Commander-In Chief of the greatest
military force in history of mankind, which John Kerry does NOT have!


Many senior officers have indicated that the invasion of Iraq was a mistake,
and had been bungled to the point of dereliction of duty. A former SecNav
called the invasion of Iraq the worst strategic blunder in memory.

Walt

WalterM140 June 6th 04 01:17 PM

Whether George Bush "served" in the Air National Guard or not,

He most certainly did. I looked at this as hard as I could, and I
concluded that his military service was longer than mine, more
dangerous than mine, and more useful to the country.


This link shows conclusively that Bush did not earn the requisite 50 points for
a year's satisfactory service:

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/g...-73arfspe1.pdf


Walt

WalterM140 June 6th 04 01:19 PM

WalterM140 wrote:
Let's clarify this a bit. What the writer MEANT to say what that two
DEMOCRATIC
PARTY politicians who just happened to have been awarded the Medal of
Honor...


People don't just "happen" to be awarded the MOH.

Try again.

Walt


You failed to mention that they both had won their MOHs long before they
became
politicians. It was merely a credit to their good sense that those brave men
chose to become Democratic politicians.


Exactly.

Walt

Mike Dargan June 6th 04 04:00 PM

JohnČ]
wrote:
In article , WalterM140
wrote:


Whether George Bush "served" in the Air National Guard or not,

He most certainly did. I looked at this as hard as I could, and I
concluded that his military service was longer than mine, more
dangerous than mine, and more useful to the country.


This link shows conclusively that Bush did not earn the requisite 50 points
for
a year's satisfactory service:

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/g...-73arfspe1.pdf


Walt



Irrelevant.

The appropriate authority determined that he had had successfully and
honorably completed his term of service and awarded him an honorable
discharge. That certificate and the NGB Form 22 that accompanies it
are prima facie evidence of honorable service.

End of story. Get over it.


Agreed. Bush used family influence to get into and out of the guard.
That's certainly not illegal, and made good sense. How could
responsible parents stand by and allow their son to be wasted in a
debacle like Viet Nam?

Cheers

--mike

John


WalterM140 June 6th 04 04:40 PM

Whether George Bush "served" in the Air National Guard or not,

He most certainly did. I looked at this as hard as I could, and I
concluded that his military service was longer than mine, more
dangerous than mine, and more useful to the country.


This link shows conclusively that Bush did not earn the requisite 50 points
for
a year's satisfactory service:

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/g...-73arfspe1.pdf


Walt


Irrelevant.


No it's not. The primary source (the document I linked to) cannot be trumped
by secondary sources beholden to Bush or his benefactors.

Bush did not sucessfully complete his obligatory service.


The appropriate authority determined that he had had successfully and
honorably completed his term of service and awarded him an honorable
discharge.


According to one website, his DD-214 is missing. The one linked document I
viewed recently said he was "honorably" discharged by order of the governor of
Texas.

That's not how it works.

That certificate and the NGB Form 22 that accompanies it
are prima facie evidence of honorable service.


Have you a link to this honorable discharge?

Walt

Steve Hix June 6th 04 05:09 PM

In article [email protected]_s52,
Mike Dargan wrote:

Agreed. Bush used family influence to get into and out of the guard.
That's certainly not illegal, and made good sense. How could
responsible parents stand by and allow their son to be wasted in a
debacle like Viet Nam?


*If* you are correct, they must have been horrified when he volunteered
to fly the F-102 in VN, at a time when more-senior pilots from his unit
were serving there.

*If*.

KeithK June 6th 04 05:42 PM

In article ,
(WalterM140) wrote:

Whether George Bush "served" in the Air National Guard or not,


He most certainly did. I looked at this as hard as I could, and I
concluded that his military service was longer than mine, more
dangerous than mine, and more useful to the country.


This link shows conclusively that Bush did not earn the requisite 50 points
for
a year's satisfactory service:

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/g...-73arfspe1.pdf


Walt


Again, Walt, that link does not include the 12 gratuity points that a
Reserve member receives each year. Those 12 point's put him over the 50
points you claim he needs.

Brett June 6th 04 08:04 PM

"WalterM140" wrote:
Whether George Bush "served" in the Air National Guard or not,

He most certainly did. I looked at this as hard as I could, and I
concluded that his military service was longer than mine, more
dangerous than mine, and more useful to the country.

This link shows conclusively that Bush did not earn the requisite 50

points
for
a year's satisfactory service:

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/g...-73arfspe1.pdf


Walt


Irrelevant.


No it's not. The primary source (the document I linked to) cannot be

trumped
by secondary sources beholden to Bush or his benefactors.

Bush did not sucessfully complete his obligatory service.


The appropriate authority determined that he had had successfully and
honorably completed his term of service and awarded him an honorable
discharge.


According to one website, his DD-214 is missing.


He served in the TANG and was issued an NGB Form 22 according to the records
Bush has released (it was one of them included).
More than one Federal and State web site quote that an NGB Form 22: Report
of Separation and Record of Service is issued to a reservist when discharged
from the Army national Guard or Air National Guard.

http://www.vahomes.org/la/coe_ngb.htm




Cub Driver June 7th 04 10:26 AM


End of story. Get over it.


You are evidently replying to someone whom I've kill-filed :)

It is not at all unusual for an individual to fall short in one year's
Guard training and to make it up the following year. That' seems to be
what Bush did in his last two years of service. The poster clearly
didn't bother to read www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm which deals
with this matter, and indeed every year of Bush's service. Instead he
preferred to trot out his own url, as if it were something new. It's
for tricks like that that I put him in the crapper.

As for getting over it, I don't think we have much hope.Liars and
tricksters aren't interested in getting at the truth.



all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

Cub Driver June 7th 04 10:29 AM


Agreed. Bush used family influence to get into and out of the guard.


Did he? I find no evidence of either, though I'm sure that to be the
son of a Congressman helped him along when it came to being accepted
(but not in leaving). That's not the same thing as "using" the
connection. Short of changing his name, or joining the New York Guard,
there was nothing he could have done about it.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

Paul J. Adam June 7th 04 10:31 PM

In message , Cub Driver
writes

Agreed. Bush used family influence to get into and out of the guard.


Did he? I find no evidence of either, though I'm sure that to be the
son of a Congressman helped him along when it came to being accepted
(but not in leaving).


I think influence played a part. On the other hand, learning to fly a
F-102 isn't the easiest thing in the world[1]. And F-102s were certainly
flying operational missions in SEA, and killed a few of their pilots -
not exactly a safe cushty desk job.

Did he bail early? Alleged, unproven, but even if he did so did lots of
other folks, with no worse consequences (yes, you had a 'further
commitment' - but no, the military wasn't hunting you down to fulfil it
and seemed to have been reducing force anyway). Didn't snag a college
deferment, either (which hasn't been a barrier to US office).


I become tired of hearing pocket ideologues of either shade rant about
how one candidate's uniformed service was perfectly exemplary while the
other's was a complete disgrace, and the noise and fury of the fanatics
means I'm wary even of more measured claims.


Not my problem anyway, just an outside perspective since the debate's
inflicted on me :)


[1] At least a knife-point of RAM relevance.

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

WalterM140 June 8th 04 08:32 AM

It is not at all unusual for an individual to fall short in one year's
Guard training and to make it up the following year. That' seems to be
what Bush did in his last two years of service.


Where is Bush's certificate of Honorable Discharge?

Walt

WalterM140 June 8th 04 08:34 AM

Agreed. Bush used family influence to get into and out of the guard.

Did he? I find no evidence of either, t


He jumped a 500 person waiting list. There's no issue over whether Bush got
preferential treatment. The issue is that he did not fulfil his obligation.
He clearly did not.

Walt

WalterM140 June 8th 04 08:36 AM

Did he bail early? Alleged, unproven

No it's not. Follow this link:

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/ANG22.gif

It shows 5 years, 4 months and 5 days service out of a six year commitment.

Walt

WalterM140 June 8th 04 08:38 AM

He served in the TANG and was issued an NGB Form 22 according to the records

Where is his "Honorable Discharge"? That's a certificate suitable for framing.

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/ANG22.gif

This link to the document you cite clearly shows that Bush fulfiled only 5
years, 4 months and 5 days service out of a six year commitment.

Walt

WalterM140 June 8th 04 08:39 AM

The poor loser party has been beating this dead horse since May 2000
and has yet to produce a single shred of credible evidence to support
it.


Follow this link:

http://awolbush.com/

Walt

Brett June 8th 04 09:29 AM


"WalterM140" wrote:
He served in the TANG and was issued an NGB Form 22 according to the

records

Where is his "Honorable Discharge"?


It's on his NGB Form 22. Try reading it.



Cub Driver June 8th 04 10:28 AM

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 22:31:54 +0100, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:

Did he bail early? Alleged, unproven, but even if he did so did lots of
other folks,


Well, he was transferred to inactive status in October 1973, and
formally discharged in November 1974. So what appears to have happened
is that he swapped six months of Guard-for-training for a year on
inactive reserve. In the normal course of events he would have
finished his hitch in May 1974.

He served the equivalent of 25 months on active service ("active duty
for training") over the course of six and one-half years. As noted,
that was a month more than I spent in the army, and I would spit in
the eye of anyone, MOH winner included, who told me I didn't serve.
Damn straight I did!

Bush's service is neither mysterious nor particularly interesting. The
first four years were exemplary, the last two perfunctory. Evidently
what happened was twofold: a) the war was winding down, and with it
the Guard's need for him and his need for the Guard; and b) the Guard
was no longer flying the F-102A, and it was worth nobody's time to
train him in another aircraft.

www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

Steven P. McNicoll June 8th 04 12:11 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

He jumped a 500 person waiting list. There's no issue over whether Bush

got
preferential treatment. The issue is that he did not fulfil his

obligation.
He clearly did not.


The "big lie" doesn't seem to be working. Now what are you going to do?



KeithK June 8th 04 12:22 PM

In article ,
(WalterM140) wrote:

Agreed. Bush used family influence to get into and out of the guard.


Did he? I find no evidence of either, t


He jumped a 500 person waiting list. There's no issue over whether Bush got
preferential treatment. The issue is that he did not fulfil his obligation.
He clearly did not.

Walt


And all 500 of those people were qualified to be an F-102 pilot?
Just because you're on the bottom of the list doesn't mean you are not
the first qualified for a position, and willing to leave on their
training schedule.

Steven P. McNicoll June 8th 04 02:17 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

This link shows conclusively that Bush did not earn the requisite
50 points for a year's satisfactory service:

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/g...-73arfspe1.pdf


Actually, it doesn't.



Steven P. McNicoll June 8th 04 02:21 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

No it's not. The primary source (the document I linked to) cannot
be trumped by secondary sources beholden to Bush or his benefactors.


The primary source you linked to is incomplete. It's trumped by primary
sources that are complete.



Bush did not sucessfully complete his obligatory service.


It's been proven that he did.



George Z. Bush June 8th 04 03:30 PM

WalterM140 wrote:
It is not at all unusual for an individual to fall short in one year's
Guard training and to make it up the following year. That' seems to be
what Bush did in his last two years of service.


Where is Bush's certificate of Honorable Discharge?


I believe I've seen a copy on one posted on the Internet some time ago. The
real question is how much influence was exerted by his father the Congressman to
get it issued. The answer to that little question seems to be clouded by smoke
and mirrors, as our Repug friends are wont to say. Smoke usually coming from
fire, I daresay that his Congressional hand is in it somewhere although I doubt
that, what with two presidents in the family, the public will ever learn the
truth about it.

George Z.



George Z. Bush June 8th 04 03:36 PM

KeithK wrote:
In article ,
(WalterM140) wrote:

Agreed. Bush used family influence to get into and out of the guard.

Did he? I find no evidence of either, t


He jumped a 500 person waiting list. There's no issue over whether Bush got
preferential treatment. The issue is that he did not fulfil his obligation.
He clearly did not.

Walt


And all 500 of those people were qualified to be an F-102 pilot?
Just because you're on the bottom of the list doesn't mean you are not
the first qualified for a position, and willing to leave on their
training schedule.


The odds are that at least 50 or more would have scored higher than the 25th
%ile in the aptitude test. He had no special qualifications to fly an F-102,
much less than any other jet or other powered aircraft. You don't seriously
believe that not one of those five hundred above him on the waiting list
wouldn't have given an arm or a leg for the opportunity to get into pilot
training. Anybody who thinks that is deluding himself.

George Z.



Kevin Brooks June 8th 04 03:48 PM


"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...
WalterM140 wrote:
It is not at all unusual for an individual to fall short in one year's
Guard training and to make it up the following year. That' seems to be
what Bush did in his last two years of service.


Where is Bush's certificate of Honorable Discharge?


I believe I've seen a copy on one posted on the Internet some time ago.

The
real question is how much influence was exerted by his father the

Congressman to
get it issued. The answer to that little question seems to be clouded by

smoke
and mirrors, as our Repug friends are wont to say. Smoke usually coming

from
fire, I daresay that his Congressional hand is in it somewhere although I

doubt
that, what with two presidents in the family, the public will ever learn

the
truth about it.


You really don't know anything about how service is credited in the Guard
and Reserves, do you? Why don't you just come out and admit that instead of
tossing out unsubstantiated "seems to's", "daresays", and "doubts", which in
their sum total value as evidence are about as compelling as the usual
National Enquirer or Weekly World News article?

Brooks


George Z.





OXMORON1 June 8th 04 04:22 PM

George wrote:
The odds are that at least 50 or more would have scored higher than the 25th
%ile in the aptitude test. He had no special qualifications to fly an F-102,
much less than any other jet or other powered aircraft. You don't seriously
believe that not one of those five hundred above him on the waiting list
wouldn't have given an arm or a leg for the opportunity to get into pilot
training. Anybody who thinks that is deluding himself.


I doubt that he got any more consideration than the son of the civil service
secretary in Group HQ or the son of the SMSgt Maintenace supervisor in the CAM
Sqdn or the Airlift Sqdn CO's next door neighbor's son (who mowed the CO's law
for 6 years while in grade school and Jr Hi.)

He definitely got more consideration than most guys off the street or the goofy
kid from the local teacher's college or the local Penecostal preacher's kid.

He probably didn't get as much consideration as the All State QB who was going
to the same school as the State Adjudant General. "We'll talk about teaching
you to fly later son, Hell we'll even make you an officer."

oxmoron1
MFE


Steven P. McNicoll June 8th 04 04:27 PM


"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

I believe I've seen a copy on one posted on the Internet some time
ago. The real question is how much influence was exerted by his father
the Congressman to get it issued.


Well, since his father wasn't a Congressman at the time, the answer has to
be, "None".




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