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-   -   Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=9683)

WalterM140 July 10th 04 03:38 PM

The one thing I can say about Bush, is that he was never a communist. I
can't
say the same about JFKerry. I don't vote for communists, pinko's, or listen
much
to people like you who do.


Kerry is a decorated WIA veteran. He's not a communist. Step back from the
Republican Party Kool-aid.

Walt

WalterM140 July 10th 04 03:41 PM

Probably not since OCS is Army, not Air Force.

Next you will be telling us he never went to UPT either.


Did not/does not the Air Force have some sort of equivalent to OCS? One that
prospective second lieutenants go through?

Walt

WalterM140 July 10th 04 03:45 PM

Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here.

Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one

problem.

JFKerry skipped out of his last 8 months in the war zone (after receiving
three
scratches in the line of duty).


Senator Kerry is a decorated veteran.

Bush skipped the last two years of his commitment.

Walt

B2431 July 10th 04 04:17 PM

From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/10/2004 9:41 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Probably not since OCS is Army, not Air Force.

Next you will be telling us he never went to UPT either.


Did not/does not the Air Force have some sort of equivalent to OCS? One that
prospective second lieutenants go through?

Walt


Sure, it's OTS. Does it matter how Bush got his butter bars? The fact remains
he did.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Steven P. McNicoll July 10th 04 04:38 PM


"B2431" wrote in message
...

Sure, it's OTS. Does it matter how Bush got his butter bars? The fact

remains
he did.


Yes, and he got them the same way other ANG pilots got them.



Steven P. McNicoll July 10th 04 04:39 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one

problem.


The record indicates you're wrong. Again.



Steven P. McNicoll July 10th 04 04:40 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Senator Kerry is a decorated veteran.


Yes, he earned some of his decorations. Nobody disputes that.



Bush skipped the last two years of his commitment.


The record indicates otherwise.



Ed Rasimus July 10th 04 04:58 PM

On 10 Jul 2004 14:37:31 GMT, (WalterM140) wrote:

Some of these people want to say Bush got no special treatment, but I don't
know of any one who ever (at least since WWII) who got lieutenant's bars
without going through OCS or some sort of officer qualification program. Bush
went through a six week basic air man's course, and then got a commission.


The "six week basic air man's (sic) course" is OTS. The President did
what every other ANG input to USAF UPT does. He got his commission
through OTS. You might also use the correct terminology while spouting
your propaganda. The commissioning course is Officer Training School,
not Officer Training School which was the term during WW II for Army
"90 day wonders".

And, you might look into "direct commissioning" and expand your
knowledge base. While it doesn't apply to line officers, the special
components such as Medical Corps, JAG, BEE, etc. can receive direct
commissions. Ever wonder why you never met an active duty military
medical doctor in the grade of Lt?

I think that Gore's father and Bush's father both had the same idea in mind in
the '60's. If their sons were going to have political aspirations, they had to
serve honorably. Gore did go to Viet Nam and as far as I know, completely his
service honorably and completely.


Ah, the ol' "as far as I know" escape clause. Well, after today, you
can know--Gore served 151 days of a 360 day "combat tour". He has used
the statement that "I went because if I didn't, someone else would
have had to serve in my place." A noble sentiment, but the fact is
that someone else did have to serve to complete his curtailed tour.

One might also note the tour length for John Kerry. Do we see a trend
among political candidates to "fill the square" then leave?

He got a cushy job, so be it. But Bush DID
NOT complete his service honorably - his dad made sure that the records
reflected honorable service, but unfortunately for the Bushies, there is this
one pesky document that shows a conclusive 16 month break in Bush's service.


Repeat, repeat, repeat and eventually the "Big Lie" is accepted as
truth. After 4 and a half years of a six year commitment, the
President took a temporary duty attachment to Alabama and then
accepted an "early out" as did many excess members of the active and
reserve forces at the end of the Vietnam War. You continue to assert
"dad made sure" but GHWB would hardly have the clout in '73 to
influence record falsification.

Hopefully, more will be made of this in the coming months. Because unlike Gore
-or- Clinton, Senator Kerry served with distinction.


Must be a typo there? Watch through the summer as more and more
Vietnam era vets join the 124 Swift boat commanders who have already
come forward to offer comment from a first-person perspective on
Senator Kerry's self-service.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

WalterM140 July 10th 04 05:04 PM

Sure, it's OTS. Does it matter how Bush got his butter bars? The fact
remains
he did.


Yes, and he got them the same way other ANG pilots got them.


ANG pilots were direct commissioned? All of them?



Walt

Ed Rasimus July 10th 04 05:05 PM

On 10 Jul 2004 00:27:24 GMT, "ian maclure" wrote:

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:53:48 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
aircraft"! Were they really?


Compared to flying F-105's to Route Package Six, they were very safe when
compared to flying an F-102 over Houston.


Nice of Walt to provide us a comment about driving 105's to RP VI.
But, flying Deuces day or night, in any kind of weather, mostly out
over the Gulf in a cockpit you could barely see out of and with an
under-powered J-57 doing the pushing was not a piece of cake.

Non-responsive.

Absent the folks shooting at you and the fact that Air Intercept
is usually a regime thats less hazardous inherently than moving
mud, both are equally hazardous.

High powered jets will kill you for any number of seemingly
minor lapses in concentration, judgement, or luck.

And things like "Route Package Six" were part of the problem in
Vietnam. Why fergawdsake, set up predictable in/out routes for
raids. Apparently this is what happened for a long time.
Meant the NVA could set up their SAMs and AAA along those routes
and concentrate their fire.


Willy Sutton was asked why he robbed banks. "That's where the money
is" was his answer. Why did we us the routes we did? Because they led
to the targets. NVN is a small country. The targets of meaning are
clustered in a smaller area of flat land and coastal plains. If you
start from A and go to B, there are only so many ways to get there. In
the days before GPS, visual nav means finding landmarks like Yen Bai,
the "dog pecker", Thud Ridge, Phantom Ridge and the "porkchop" to use
as pilotage checkpoints.

There were a lot of variations within the theme. We could get to Hanoi
from Thud Ridge, crossing from Laos and back out via Laos; or from
Laos and out to the Gulf; or from the Gulf and back out feet wet; or
from the Gulf and out via Laos. But, eventually you have to get over
the target and that's where the defenses are.



IBM

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Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8


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