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-   -   Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=9683)

Ian MacLure July 11th 04 05:42 AM

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:


A lot more dangerous over enemy territory than over Texas. Believe
me. I have flown over both.


Of course, but (and as a B26 crew member you ought to appreciate
this) flying high performance aircraft carries risks in and of
itself. Certainly higher risk than flying a typewriter in a
rear area for 90 days.

IBM

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Bill Shatzer July 11th 04 05:44 AM

Jim Thomas ) writes:
George Shirley wrote in message news:
Most grunts referred to officers "advancing their careers" by serving a
tour or part of a tour as "getting their ticket punched." Had to get a
least some combat time for advancement. Many officers were there because
that was the only war we had at the time and war means promotions,
officer or enlisted lifer.


And why is this a bad thing?


'Cause it played havoc with unit morale and combat effectiveness.

To provide a maximum number of "ticket punches", most officers
spent only six months or less with the combat battlions - the
rest of their tours were spent as laundry and morale office at
some rear echelon headquarters unit.

Just about the time an officer was really learning to get good at
his job, he'd be rotated out and a new inexperienced "ticket puncher"
would be assigned in his place. To repeat the learning curve.

I'd venture to say that most of the
officers who volunteered to serve in SEA did so, not to save the USA
from the Communist hordes, but because it was, indeed, "the only war
we had"; going to war, if required, was what we all signed to do; and
yes, anyone who expected to make a career as a warrior needed to prove
that he could be one. If this is "ticket punching", then I'm guilty.


I don't denigrate the "ticket punchers" - especially the captains and
looies. Their motives were generally honorable and their intentions
good.

But the system was dumb and undoubtably resulted in some good
people getting killed who didn't have to be.

And that's a heavy price to pay for the sake of increasing the number
of tickets punched.

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

Jack July 11th 04 05:49 AM

Hey, I DEROS'd 10 days early: maybe I should run for President.


--
Jack

"Cave ab homine unius libri"

Fred the Red Shirt July 11th 04 05:49 AM

"ian maclure" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:53:48 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
aircraft"! Were they really?


Compared to flying F-105's to Route Package Six, they were very safe when
compared to flying an F-102 over Houston.


Non-responsive.

Absent the folks shooting at you and the fact that Air Intercept
is usually a regime thats less hazardous inherently than moving
mud, both are equally hazardous.


IOW, if you don't consider the factors that make one more hazardous,
they are equally hazaradous? Or are you just saying that any risk
differential was largely independent of the type of aircraft being
flown?

One should probably also factor in quality of maitenance domestically
vs in theater.

Didn't the 102 have the downward firing ejection seat that
made low-level ejections, er, problematic?

--

FF

Ian MacLure July 11th 04 05:51 AM

nt (Krztalizer) wrote in
:

And things like "Route Package Six" were part of the problem in
Vietnam. Why fergawdsake, set up predictable in/out routes for
raids. Apparently this is what happened for a long time.
Meant the NVA could set up their SAMs and AAA along those routes
and concentrate their fire.


Mosquito bombers en route to Berlin in 44-45 had set approach routes,
well known to aircrews and flak gunners alike. The three routes were
so well travelled that even the Jerries referred to approaching bogies
as "stranger on (train) Platform 3". Anti-Mosquito units were
deliberately stationed on top of the three arriving "railroad"
routes...

Glad to see we learned from that little mistake...


A friend of mine did two tours in A4s in Vietnam. Mention that
particular idiocy to him and steam starts pouring out his ears.
Anybody know what the dumbasses who thought that one up were
thinking. Was it an effort to deconflict or just plain stupidity
at high elevels. Even worse was it the politicians trying to run the
war at a tactical level?

IBM

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Ian MacLure July 11th 04 05:55 AM

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here. I
graduated from
college in 1968 in Arizona.


Did you go to Officer Candidates School?

Bush 43 did not.


So?
Was OCS the only route to a commission?

IBM

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D. Strang July 11th 04 06:02 AM

"Bill Shatzer" wrote

But the system was dumb and undoubtably resulted in some good
people getting killed who didn't have to be.


Most of the men killed in my platoons died because they failed
basic military skills. Every time we went out, someone would trip
over a booby trap and kill the two guys behind him that were
bunched-up. It never had anything to do with the REMF's.

I never once lacked any supply I requested. The logistics troops
were always giving us what we wanted, and the air support and
artillery were instantaneous. We almost never had to carry dead
troops out of the field. We stacked them up, and a helo came in
and took them away. We had guys who just refused to wear a
flak jacket. Nothing I could threaten them with would convince
them I was right. Most of them got stacked. **** em.



D. Strang July 11th 04 06:04 AM

Can you imitate Thurston Howell III?

"Jack" wrote

Hey, I DEROS'd 10 days early: maybe I should run for President.




Ian MacLure July 11th 04 06:39 AM

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

Ya know I really don't know what all the fuss was about here.


Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one
problem.


So you claim.
Got any hard evidence of this?
No?
Then belt up!

IBM

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Ian MacLure July 11th 04 06:41 AM

"D. Strang" wrote in
news:[email protected]:

[snip]

JFKerry skipped out of his last 8 months in the war zone (after
receiving three scratches in the line of duty).


One of which ( it is alleged ) he got by playing the asshole
with explosive ordnance.

IBM

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Bill Shatzer July 11th 04 06:44 AM


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in

The F-102A was area ruled.


I had thought that was exactly the problem with the F-102;
that it was NOT area ruled.

My quick and dirty reference (the one which most readily
falls to hand) indicates that the F-102 had a max speed
of 825 mph with a J57-P engine,

The F-106 is listed with a max speed of 1,530 mph with the
the same J57-P engine.

Something has to be going on there with the aerodynamics to
account for an 85% increase in speed with essentially the
same engine producing essentially the same thrust.



--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

Ian MacLure July 11th 04 06:46 AM

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

[snip]

Some of these people want to say Bush got no special treatment, but I
don't know of any one who ever (at least since WWII) who got
lieutenant's bars without going through OCS or some sort of officer
qualification program. Bush went through a six week basic air man's
course, and then got a commission.


Was this a unique occurrence and can you prove it?

I think that Gore's father and Bush's father both had the same idea
in mind in the '60's. If their sons were going to have political
aspirations, they had to serve honorably. Gore did go to Viet Nam and
as far as I know, completely his service honorably and completely.


Shows ( once again ) what you know. Algore spent 90 days flying
a typewriter in a rear area to give his father cover during a
hard fought election then got yanked once the election was over.

He got a cushy job, so be it. But Bush DID NOT complete his service
honorably - his dad made sure that the records reflected honorable
service, but unfortunately for the Bushies, there is this one pesky
document that shows a conclusive 16 month break in Bush's service.


Cocnlusive to whom? To you? Ha! As if that matters.

Hopefully, more will be made of this in the coming months. Because
unlike Gore -or- Clinton, Senator Kerry served with distinction.


Not according to many of his peers in the brown water navy.
Kerry spent 120 days on station then got yanked.

IBM


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Ian MacLure July 11th 04 06:49 AM

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

Probably not since OCS is Army, not Air Force.

Next you will be telling us he never went to UPT either.


Did not/does not the Air Force have some sort of equivalent to OCS?
One that prospective second lieutenants go through?


Probably more than one at the time.

IBM

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Bill Shatzer July 11th 04 06:50 AM

Fred the Red Shirt ) writes:

Didn't the 102 have the downward firing ejection seat that
made low-level ejections, er, problematic?


Nah, it was "up and out" on the F-102.

But it wasn't equipped with the "zero/zero" ejection seats that
today's aircraft have - so low level ejections -were- problematic.

But then, F-102s tended to spend very little time at low altitudes.
Take offs and landings were pretty much the extent of that.

--


"Cave ab homine unius libri"

Ian MacLure July 11th 04 06:50 AM

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

[snip]

Senator Kerry is a decorated veteran.


KKKerry is a legend in his own mind. His colleagues are
less fullsome in their praise.

Bush skipped the last two years of his commitment.


Prove it! Otherwise belt up.

IBM

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Ian MacLure July 11th 04 06:53 AM

(B2431) wrote in
:

From:
(WalterM140)
Date: 7/10/2004 9:41 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Probably not since OCS is Army, not Air Force.

Next you will be telling us he never went to UPT either.


Did not/does not the Air Force have some sort of equivalent to OCS?
One that prospective second lieutenants go through?

Walt


Sure, it's OTS. Does it matter how Bush got his butter bars? The fact
remains he did.


And kept them. And made it through flight school without killing
himself or anybody else.
Or do you claim they just gave him his wings and pointed him at the
flight line? Wouldn't surprise me if thats your next claim.
And even if that was, by some warp of reality, what actually happened
he was at least able to fly a complex high performance airplane on
a number of occasions without any formal instruction. I would think
you'd be impressed with that level of ingenuity.

IBM

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Ian MacLure July 11th 04 06:55 AM

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ink.net:

"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one

problem.


The record indicates you're wrong. Again.


Well I think its safe to say that the only record those bozos are
interested in is broken and just keeps repeating the same old
off-key passage again and again and again.

IBM


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Ian MacLure July 11th 04 06:56 AM

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ink.net:

"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Senator Kerry is a decorated veteran.


Yes, he earned some of his decorations. Nobody disputes that.


Yes indeed, some. But not all.

IBM

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Ian MacLure July 11th 04 07:13 AM

(WalterM140) wrote in
:

Sure, it's OTS. Does it matter how Bush got his butter bars? The fact

remains
he did.


Yes, and he got them the same way other ANG pilots got them.


ANG pilots were direct commissioned? All of them?


Your reading comprehension is faulty as well as your intellect.
Read the Ed Rasimus post carefully and note who DCs were intended for.
Note also that your notion of what OCS involved isn't even close.

IBM

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Ian MacLure July 11th 04 07:32 AM

(ArtKramr) wrote in news:[email protected]
m14.aol.com:

[snip]

More neocon bitterness.


Bitter and twisted is for losers.
We won the 2000 election.
We are going to win the 2004 election.
So who's bitter?

IBM

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Ian MacLure July 11th 04 07:42 AM

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ink.net:

[snip]

No American should have gone to that war.


Its a great pity that Kennedy and Johnson didn't feel
that way.

IBM

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Ian MacLure July 11th 04 07:55 AM

Ed Rasimus wrote in
:


This just in. Breaking news. John Edwards didn't serve in Vietnam.
Where was he?


Lets see ...
Born in 1953.
So he was certainly in the zone for being drafted.
Graduated NCSU with a degree in textiles in 1974.
I'm assuming that was a four year degree.
Implies he graduated high school in 1970.
And he didn't immediately volunteer for the Marines?
Scandalous.... And with Parris Island just down the
road?
INEXCUSABLE!
He should certainly have been doing solo banzai
charges down Main Street in Hanoi according to the
Mendacious Muckfusters.
Didn't marry until 1977 so thats one avenue he couldn't
exploit.
So, we know where he was. Is it possible he drew a high
number and didn't feel inclined to serve.
Why... Why... Thats rank cowardice according to the
Muckfusters. He should be whipped flogged and purged.

IBM



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Ian MacLure July 11th 04 07:57 AM

"D. Strang" wrote in
news:[email protected]:

[snip]

I would disagree. While I agree the war was a failure, because the
mission was too broad: "Stop Communism." If the mission was to
re-unify the country, then we should never have cancelled the
elections. The country was not a threat to anyone, even as a Soviet
client. Once we went defensive, the war was over. The Vietnamese
found out rather quickly that the Soviets were worthless, and their
relationship didn't last long after the war was over.


Not to mention that eternal chumship with their northern
neighbours went the way of the dodo real soon as well.

IBM

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Ian MacLure July 11th 04 08:01 AM

(Bill Shatzer) wrote in
:

Ed Rasimus ) writes:

This just in. Breaking news. John Edwards didn't serve in Vietnam.
Where was he?


In high school.


Whence he graduated in circa 1970.
And the draft ended when exactly? Hmmm?

IBM

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Ian MacLure July 11th 04 08:10 AM

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
link.net:

[snip]

No, I'm not wrong. No American should have gone to that war. The US
shouldn't have assisted France in reclaiming it's colony after WWII.
After four years of German occupation the French should have learned
something about oppression.


I believe the US tried to convince the Asiatic colonial powers that
they ought to walk away from their colonies as soon as they possibly
could and not go back in in the first place if it was at all feasible.
This not unexpectedly put French noses out of joint ( as well as Dutch
and British ).

IBM

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B2431 July 11th 04 08:35 AM

From: Ian MacLure
Date: 7/11/2004 2:00 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Scott Peterson wrote in
:

Ed Rasimus wrote:

Ever wonder why you never met an active duty military
medical doctor in the grade of Lt?


Met lots of them......in the Navy.


D'oh!
maybe the original should have specified an O grade
As in you don't see Medical Officers at O-2 or below.

IBM


Look again. Nurses and PAs start out as butter bars. Basic rule of thumb, not
followed rigidly: batchelor's degree = start as O-1, masters as O-2 and PhD as
O-3.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

B2431 July 11th 04 08:38 AM

From: Ian MacLure
Date: 7/11/2004 2:01 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

(Bill Shatzer) wrote in
:

Ed Rasimus ) writes:

This just in. Breaking news. John Edwards didn't serve in Vietnam.
Where was he?


In high school.


Whence he graduated in circa 1970.
And the draft ended when exactly? Hmmm?

IBM


June 1973.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

B2431 July 11th 04 08:51 AM

From: Ian MacLure


Hmm, anybody know whether Algore tried to get a CIB?
I presume he wouldn't have been elegible what with being behind
a typewriter in a rear area.


He was in the wrong MOS.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Cub Driver July 11th 04 10:05 AM

On 11 Jul 2004 04:42:40 GMT, Ian MacLure wrote:

Of course, but (and as a B26 crew member you ought to appreciate
this) flying high performance aircraft carries risks in and of
itself.


A couple years ago, Art became a tired and tiresome old man. Too bad!
If history repeats itself the second time as farce, Art is in the
farcical stage. That B-26 has become a joke, with Art as its sole crew
member--pilot, navigator, gunner, bombardier--that won the war all by
itself, dropping the Farcical Bomb on Germany.

Put a sock in it, Art. Nobody's listening any more. Your vote doesn't
even matter--you can stay home in November, because California isn't
going for Bush in any event.

And don't worry! You'll learn to love him in his second term :)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

Cub Driver July 11th 04 10:09 AM


Bush skipped out on the last two years of his commitment. That's one problem.


It's not a problem. It's a lie, one which you have been spitting into
the wind for the past several months.

www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

The president did good in the Texas Air Guard. And he was on the job a
whole lot longer than Mr. Kerry was.

Nor did he ever try to get out of his miitary commitment, as Kerry did
when he was a college student. See the London Telegraph story at
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ixnewstop.html



all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

Cub Driver July 11th 04 10:10 AM


Bush skipped the last two years of his commitment.


A lie. www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

Cub Driver July 11th 04 10:12 AM


What happened? Did your scalp lose an argument with the prop?


I wear a ball cap in lieu of sunglasses. With the bill forward, you
can't see the aileron horn coming at you. I gained a new appreciation
for low-wing aircraft, and for the college kids wearing their ball
caps backwards.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

Cub Driver July 11th 04 10:20 AM


Did not/does not the Air Force have some sort of equivalent to OCS?
One that prospective second lieutenants go through?


Probably more than one at the time.


Bush went into the ANG as an airman basic. After three months active
duty for training he was commissioned 2nd Lt and assigned to the 111th
TFS. It was indeed an accepted officer-training route in 1968.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

Cub Driver July 11th 04 10:23 AM


Many officers were there because
that was the only war we had at the time and war means promotions,
officer or enlisted lifer.


The laugh line among junior officers in Vietnam in 1964 was: "It's a
lousy war, but it's the only war we've got!"

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

WalterM140 July 11th 04 12:49 PM

A couple years ago, Art became a tired and tiresome old man. Too bad!

Art's ability to see that Bush is a complete disaster is a credit to him.

Art -is- pretty pugnacious though. :)

Walt

WalterM140 July 11th 04 01:01 PM

ANG pilots were direct commissioned? All of them?



Walt


He went through OTS.


Bush went through OTS? That contradicts James Webb, who said he did not.

Also -this- document -- released by Bush -- shows that he completed enlisted
training on 9/3/68 and was commissioned a 2nd lt -- the very next day!

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc14.gif

Bush got special treatment from first to last. His records have been sanitized
and completed -after- he ducked out for two years. BUT there -is- a document
extant that PROVES at least a 16 month gap in his service.

Walt



WalterM140 July 11th 04 01:04 PM

Actually the ANG calls it something different...at least they did in 1994
when
I went through UPT with 4 Guardsmen. Little did they know that they were
recieving special treatment. Please don't engage "Walt", he doesn't have a

clue
about the military or aviation and as such is not worth your time. IMHO,

"Walt"
is the worst troll I've seen here *ever*. At least Venik and the rest of the
"Serb loonies" were discussing aviation related matters....fantasy aviation,
but aviation none-the-less.


BUFDRVR


Bush -did-not- go through OTS or any other officer qualification program.

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc14.gif

He was commissioned the day -- after-- he completed a basic airman course.

Walt


Smartace11 July 11th 04 01:05 PM

My quick and dirty reference (the one which most readily
falls to hand) indicates that the F-102 had a max speed
of 825 mph with a J57-P engine,

The F-106 is listed with a max speed of 1,530 mph with the
the same J57-P engine.


The F-106 had the same engine as the F-105, the J-75. Much larger engine

http://www.f-106deltadart.com/j75-motor.htm



Brett July 11th 04 01:06 PM


"Bill Shatzer" wrote in message
...

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in

The F-102A was area ruled.


I had thought that was exactly the problem with the F-102;
that it was NOT area ruled.

My quick and dirty reference (the one which most readily
falls to hand) indicates that the F-102 had a max speed
of 825 mph with a J57-P engine,

The F-106 is listed with a max speed of 1,530 mph with the
the same J57-P engine.

Something has to be going on there with the aerodynamics to
account for an 85% increase in speed with essentially the
same engine producing essentially the same thrust.


They didn't use the same engine, the F-102A and the F-106A were both ruled
but the F-106A had dry what the F-102A had with afterburning.

F-102A:
One Pratt & Whitney J57-P-23 turbojet, 10,200 lb.s.t. dry and 16,000 lb.s.t.
with afterburning, or a J57-P-25, 11,700 lb.s.t. dry and 17,200 lb.s.t. with
afterburning.

F-106A:
One Pratt & Whitney J75-P-17 turbojet, 17,200 lb.s.t. dry and 24,500 lb.s.t
with afterburning.



ArtKramr July 11th 04 01:38 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Ian MacLure
Date: 7/10/2004 10:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

"D. Strang" wrote in
news:[email protected]:

[snip]

JFKerry skipped out of his last 8 months in the war zone (after
receiving three scratches in the line of duty).


One of which ( it is alleged ) he got by playing the asshole
with explosive ordnance.

IBM


Kerry went to war. Bush didn't


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer



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