AviationBanter

AviationBanter (http://www.aviationbanter.com/index.php)
-   Military Aviation (http://www.aviationbanter.com/forumdisplay.php?f=13)
-   -   Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=9683)

Steve Mellenthin July 12th 04 03:26 PM


Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero. And it is driving the neocons
nut
especially when we look at the war records of president Cheney and vice
president Bush..


Art, it isn't driving anyone nuts save maybe the people who are trying so hard
to convince the rest of the world of the validity of Kerry's service. The
people who have been in and around the military in the last 40 years aren't
being swayed. Until military people are convinced that Kerry's service was
exactly as it is described in his citations, I doubt if anyone who is a
conserative will be swayed in the least or be driven nuts. Few vets have
stepped forward to support Kerry's account of events.

The military is still getting over the Carter and Clinton legacies of neglect
and disrespect and isn't apt to make an exodus towards the Democratic side any
time soon in any event. I have two sons in the miltary and have spent 34 years
combined actiove duty and civilian with the Air Force so I have some insight in
this regard.

The attempt to play up Kerry as a war hero and put down Bush as a deserter has
been nothing more all along than an attempt for the Democrats to gain traction
with the military and it has failed. All it has done is to serve as a rallying
point for people who want to see Bush out rather than to win hearts and minds
of the opposition.

Right now we have a candidate who has a record of fighting terorism and another
candidate whose position on just about everything is either uncertain or
waivering. This is more about the bitter people who feel the election was
"stolen" than it is about candidates. The loss of that election shifted the
power balance in the federal government somewhat, an unacceptable situation to
the Democratic would-be power brokers. Frankly I can't imagine Algore as
President given his behavior since the election

So tell me, what would Kerry do that is so wonderful and how would we as a
people better off. Don't start with feeling unsafe - we have always been
unsafe but just awfully naive in the past about our enemies. We just haven't
wanted to believe we were in danger. Now we know we are and it has nothing to
do with the current president. I am not sure Europe matters as much as some
would like to believe at this juncture either. The future lies with Eastern
Europe and Asia, both of which have generally supported our efforts in Iraq.
The economy? Jobs? They are improving so obviously not a players either.

Maybe someone can convince me otherwise but I am certain this is more over
hatred of Bush over the loss of the last election, Gore won????? People seem
to forget that the overseas absentee ballots for the military were not counted
because of another technicality as obtuse as hanging chads. Those votes could
well have changed the outcome of the popular vote as well.

Ed Rasimus July 12th 04 03:49 PM

On 11 Jul 2004 23:34:41 GMT, (Bill Shatzer)
wrote:

Ed Rasimus ) writes:


And, you really might want to look up the duration of Mr. Gore's
overseas assignment.


Everything I've seen sez it was early January, '71 through late
May, '71 with a scheduled discharge date of August 5, '71.


You have information to the contrary?


Here's a quote: "When they finally came, he would spend less than
five months in Vietnam, arriving on Jan. 8, 1971, to write newspaper
and magazine articles. He was discharged on May 24, 1971." (The
Washington Times National Weekly Edition Nov. 28 - Dec. 4, 1994)


I said Gore spent 151 days of a year tour. You replied that he only
got a two-month curtailment. The difference would be 151 days
(Jan-May???) versus 10 months x 30 days or 300 days. I think the
Washington Times dates, my statement, and your "Everything I've seen
sez" all indicate that your asssertion of a two month curtailment was
incorrect. So, we have information to the contrary.


I'm really trying to understand your point, Ed, and I'm apparently
missing it completely. Gore had, at most, a seven month tour.


Now, read slowly:

1. January
2. February
3. March
4. April
5. May.

That leads me to believe that 5 is not equal to 7 and 7 is very much
less than 12. And two from twelve is ten which is much more than
either five or seven.

Gove's enlistment was up on August 5, 1971. As I don't think they
were doing "stop-loses" in that era and certainly not for folks
with journalist MOSs, Gove was NOT going to be in VN after
early August in any event.


If he shipped to arrive in theater on January 8, then he left CONUS on
January 5. His DEROS would be January 5 of 1972. If he did not have a
full year of retainability, he would not have shipped for the
controlled tour.

Regardless, August is not May.

If he was discharged May 24, he served in VN two months and 12
days less than the maximum he might have served there.


I don't understand the sort of math required to get 151 days of a 365
day tour and have the difference be a shortfall of 72 days. I come up
with 215 days short.

Frankly, I agree with the contention that it doesn't matter. Gore was
clearly not a component of US combat capability. Or, maybe we just
weren't yet ready to "unleash" him...




Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus July 12th 04 03:55 PM

On 12 Jul 2004 13:41:05 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.


Who by his own admission in sworn Senate testimony was personally
guilty of committing war crimes and atrocities as well as personally
observing them in his role as a commissioned officer yet not doing
anything to stop them.

And it is driving the neocons nut
especially when we look at the war records of president Cheney and vice
president Bush..


You're enamored of a new word, which you continue to use without
regard to its origins or even its meaning. You may continue to use it,
although since I've been a "conservative" since I first registered to
vote in 1963, I don't think there's anything particularly "neo" about
me.

I hereby confer upon you a proper title which you have earned by dint
of your advanced age and heartily embraced political ideology: I dub
thee "paleo-lib". Henceforth, you shall be referred to subsequent to
each incorrect application of neo-con as our resident "paleo-lib."

So let it be written, so let it be done.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Steve Mellenthin July 12th 04 04:12 PM

I hereby confer upon you a proper title which you have earned by dint
of your advanced age and heartily embraced political ideology: I dub
thee "paleo-lib". Henceforth, you shall be referred to subsequent to
each incorrect application of neo-con as our resident "paleo-lib.


So whqt does that make our generation, Ed? I am not ready just yet to be
called a paleocon.

ArtKramr July 12th 04 04:42 PM

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 7/12/2004 7:55 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On 12 Jul 2004 13:41:05 GMT,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.


Who by his own admission in sworn Senate testimony was personally
guilty of committing war crimes and atrocities as well as personally
observing them in his role as a commissioned officer yet not doing
anything to stop them.

And it is driving the neocons nut
especially when we look at the war records of president Cheney and vice
president Bush..


You're enamored of a new word, which you continue to use without
regard to its origins or even its meaning. You may continue to use it,
although since I've been a "conservative" since I first registered to
vote in 1963, I don't think there's anything particularly "neo" about
me.

I hereby confer upon you a proper title which you have earned by dint
of your advanced age and heartily embraced political ideology: I dub
thee "paleo-lib". Henceforth, you shall be referred to subsequent to
each incorrect application of neo-con as our resident "paleo-lib."

So let it be written, so let it be done.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8



Anything to take the focus off Bush. Any doversion or distraction. Talk about
anything and anyone, Gore, Clinton,me, but never about Bush. It won't work.
Vice President Bush is the issue, and the only issue.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


George Shirley July 12th 04 04:46 PM

Steve Mellenthin wrote:
I hereby confer upon you a proper title which you have earned by dint
of your advanced age and heartily embraced political ideology: I dub
thee "paleo-lib". Henceforth, you shall be referred to subsequent to
each incorrect application of neo-con as our resident "paleo-lib.



So whqt does that make our generation, Ed? I am not ready just yet to be
called a paleocon.


I registered to vote a few years before Ed (1960) and I'm not ready to
be called a paleocon either. Conservative yes, life-long Republican yes,
but (sob), I'm too young to be called paleo anything. BSEG

George


John S. Shinal July 12th 04 05:16 PM

Cub Driver wrote:
can't see the aileron horn coming at you.


OW ! OW ! OW !

At least you managed not to pour avgas over the fresh wound
when checking the sump.


Chris Mark July 12th 04 05:18 PM

From: (WalterM140)

the intellgence community is in a shambles,


Bush certainly deserves some blame for that, but the real problem set in long
ago, during the Carter administration, with the "Hallowe'en Massacre" under
Carter's CIA chief Stansfield Turner. He executed a purge of almost 3,000
intelligence officers, some 2,000 of them covert agents and paramilitary
specialists. Since then, the CIA has been gelded, involved mostly in
intelligence gathering and analysis.
We really do need a thorough examination of our intelligence services
effectiveness and then decide what we want them to do. A powerful covert
operations program in the OSS/early CIA mode (think Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy;
you know, _real_ Democrats), although anathema to the far left, might be just
what we need in the kind of war we find ourselves in today: Let the damned
terrorists and terrorist-supporting nations be afraid of _our_ terrorists, who
should be a million times better trained, equipped and supported than theirs
ever could be.
We've had an intelligence disaster brewing since Carter (actually probably from
Ford) and we really need to take a look at what we are doing. We used to be
pretty good at influencing foreign events without outright invasions, getting
rid of foreign leaders we didn't like, fomenting coups...whatever it took, from
Iran to Chile. But then we decided that was A Bad Thing. So now, the only
option we have when we want a regime change is a full-scale military invasion,
from Panama to Iraq.
We need to rethink this. That doesn't mean we should just go back to what we
did before with the CIA, et al. We made some stupid mistakes then, from Greece
to the Bay of Pigs. We know what they were and why they happened. We ought to
be able to do it better this time around. In any case, we need a wider range
of options, and greater latitude to act pre-emptively when we see a bad
situation developing.


Chris Mark

John S. Shinal July 12th 04 05:34 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote:

On 12 Jul 2004 13:41:05 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.


Who by his own admission in sworn Senate testimony was personally
guilty of committing war crimes and atrocities as well as personally
observing them in his role as a commissioned officer yet not doing
anything to stop them.


I'm not convinced JFK would recognize a war crime if it was
giftwrapped and handed to him. He seems to think that use of an M2 is
a war crime.

That being said, I have no problem with his stance on being
against armed conflict. He's seen the elephant up close and personal,
and killed face to face. He was anti-war to begin with, enlisted
anyway and served with what appears to be significant leadership under
some pretty nasty combat. His initial PH, I don't know enough about to
comment on. His later actions, including the famed dismount from the
boat to engage a VC with an RPG seem pretty gutsy and straightforward.
The firsthand accounts from his boat crew on that day were on a major
news show recently (60 minutes ?). I saw no problems in judgement.
Whether his subsequent discharge hinged on the first PH, I don't know.
I wonder about how it compares to someone like Sgt. Kregg Jorgenson
who continued walking point after several PHs and being very badly
shot up...

Kerry's subsequent voting record, especially in the very tense
80s, is something I *do* question. He was against virtually every
major and necessary defense program, including those that turned out
to be excellent purchases (like - the M1 Abrahms tank, the Patriot
missile system, etc). His persistent lack of understanding the
principles of defense programs and infrastructure, and of strategy and
grand strategy is where I find my biggest differences with him.

It's fortunate that he has come down squarely on BOTH sides of
every issue - so I can tell he agrees with me and always has - but I
can't be confident he'll carry out the solutions to these same issues.


You're enamored of a new word, which you continue to use without
regard to its origins or even its meaning. You may continue to use it,
although since I've been a "conservative" since I first registered to
vote in 1963, I don't think there's anything particularly "neo" about
me.


A lot of people seem to use "neo" to indicate "similar to but
an extreme form of...". I think I like "paraconservative" better.



Steve Mellenthin July 12th 04 05:44 PM

from Greece
to the Bay of Pigs. We know what they were and why they happened. We ought
to
be able to do it better this time around. In any case, we need a wider range
of options, and greater latitude to act pre-emptively when we see a bad
situation developing.


Chris Mark







Well put Chris. I agree completely.


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:50 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
AviationBanter.com