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-   -   Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=9683)

Jay Masino July 13th 04 03:18 PM

In rec.aviation.owning Cub Driver wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:45:07 -0700, "NW_PILOT"
If there is an election
this year I will be very surprised.

Oh yes, I forgot. The black helicopters will swoop in and take over
Washington. Is that before or after the draft is reinstated?

Of course, NW_PILOT's assesment is a litte alarmist, however
(interestingly enough), we presently DO have black helicopters patrolling
the Washington airspace and harassing general aviation. So, you never

Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !

Jack July 13th 04 03:39 PM

WalterM140 wrote:

...Bush 41 stumbled into an unneccesary war in the Gulf....

That's even wider of the mark than the usual newsgroup drivel. The "Gulf
War" was more necessary than the great majority of the military actions
in which the US has engaged since 1953.

...we're bankrupting ourselves....

But not because of the Iraq war, that's for sure.

...the intellgence community is in a shambles....

The Intelligence Community has _been_ in a shambles for decades. It's a
well known fact, and the problems of entrenched influence and lack of
leadership on the issue are widely recognized. It takes a big, big push
to make such changes, and that historically happens only after some
major debacle.

We've simply gotten the "leadership" we deserve.


Jack July 13th 04 03:51 PM

ArtKramr wrote:

...Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.

So are you and any number of people on this newsgroup. It doesn't seem
to be a factor which produces a lack of bias, nor protects one against
an excess of narrow ambition.

A presidential candidate is only as good as the people who support him.
From what I've seen of the people who are rabid supporters of either of
the major candidates, this year's vote is going to be a difficult choice
for folks who are just trying to avoid the greater evil.


Jack July 13th 04 03:57 PM

Steve Mellenthin wrote:

I am not ready just yet to be
called a paleocon.



ArtKramr July 13th 04 04:36 PM

ubject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Jack
Date: 7/13/2004 7:51 AM Pacific Standard Time

Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.

So are you and any number of people on this newsgroup. It

I was never a hero. I never did a single heroic thing.I was a 19 year old kid.
I flew my missions doing what I was trained to do. As we all did, And kept
flying those misssions until the war ended. Then I went home. Let's not make
more of it than it is.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:

Ed Rasimus July 13th 04 05:30 PM

On 12 Jul 2004 20:09:25 -0700, (Sam Byrams)

He's certainly under no obligation to fly after his service
agreement, the point is _he didn't do that_. They got less than a year
and a half out of their half-million dollar investment (in 1972).

George Bush entered Texas ANG service in 1968. Went to UPT in '69,
qualified in the Deuce in '70 and stopped flying in '72 when his unit
was transitioning to F-101s and he did not have adequate retainability
to justify requal.

tell me someone in his position with his quals would have got the deal
he got if his father hadn't been a war hero congressman. Apparently
his UPT performance should have put him in multi or helos: and
normally someone without specifically in demand attributes should have
had to go active duty to get UPT at that time anyway. Yes, that's as I
understand it and no, I wasn't there.

Glad you admit that it is as you understand it and you weren't there.
Now, listen carefully. Bush went to UPT as a TANG member. He would fly
the equipment of his unit if he completed the course. He was not in
competition for assignment USAF-wide. He was not in competition for
assignment with the other students in training. He was going to fly
the F-102 in the unit that he was a member of.

I'm waiting for someone to prove
to me he could have got that commission and training slot with his
academics in the National Guard at that time if his name had been Joe
Bagodonuts. I was thirteen years old when he went to UPT, old enough
to remember public sentiment was rapidly turning against the war-and
bitterly so-even in Dogpatch USA.

In '68 (not '72) public sentiment was divided. Bush got his training
slot when production for UPT was as high as it had been historically
since WW II. UPT was expanding from eight to eleven bases and capacity
at each site was increased. We were up to more than 5000 per year
input to UPT from all sources. (I was director of ATC Student Officer
Rated Assignments from 1970 to April 1972 and managing the program.)

As far as not being able to afford to fly-my neighbor drives a UPS
truck and he bought a Decathlon, cash, in February. He's trying to get
me to sign off on a top overhaul he wants to do, since I'm an A&P. I'm
not about to, and since I haven't used my ticket in fifteen years
(since I got it) it wouldn't be legal anyway. But in America the
middle class can fly if they want to.

My point was not that I can't fly, but that I'm under no obligation to
fly. Flying general aviation doesn't appeal to me. But, simply because
I haven't exercised my aeronautical rating in 15 years doesn't mean it
never existed. Sort of like your A&P.

My Presidential vote isn't going to count anyway since my state is
not remotely up for grabs and it's a winner-take-all state.

Since 48 out of 50 states are "winner-take-all" Electoral College
votes, your reasoning should get everyone to give up voting.

It would seem to this political scientist (BS, MPS, MSIR) that the
closeness of the last election in so many states would indicate that
the value of every citizen's vote is critically important.

They both suck. If I voted on pure principle I couldn't even vote
Libertarian-although they're closer. Kerry might really screw things
up so bad people would have to pull their heads out and in the long
run, like a dope bust,it might be beneficial for an addict.

If you can't differentiate between the basic ideological positions of
the two parties, you shouldn't vote. Good choice.

Dr. Joe Bagadonutz, the wealthy proctologist buys a Mustang or even

MiG-17 and successfully takes off and lands. He isn't, by any stretch
of the imagination, a fighter pilot. He isn't really, even that lesser
level, a pilot who flies fighters. He's simply an accident waiting to

He's equally likely to kill himself in a Bonanza for that matter.

The initial post was about flying "fighters". Yes, Bonanzas are
notorious for applying the principles of Darwin to doctors.

And the civil warjet guys are killing
themselves at a rate that would have embarrassed the Air Force during
the glory days of "Every Man A Tiger".

Excuse me, but you obviously haven't read "Every Man A Tiger." It's

about Chuck Horner as the Air Component Commander of Desert Storm. The
lead-in chapters about Gen. Horner's early days flying F-105s in
Rolling Thunder are anything but glory days.

The phrase far predates that book. It was the grinder call in the 50s
era USAF and I can remember my uncle-who went through the air cadet
program in the 50s-talking about it. Hated the culture of USAF where
Fighter Pilots were gods-he was a C-133/C-130 pilot who dropped dead
six weeks after retiring from TWA at 60 as a four striper.

With all due respect to your uncle, we never won a war by hauling more
trash than the enemy. Trash haulers help, but only because they
provide the warriors at the pointy end of the spear with the bombs,
beans and bullets to kill the enemy.

(And a
Navion owner-I took my O&P on it,and he would have let me take my
instrument rating checkride in it too,but the glideslope died and he
left it that way.) Herbert Molloy Mason's book on early 70s era UPT
mentions it in passing, disparagingly, as having been replaced by
"Professionalism". Great T-38 photos. Made me really, really envy
Chuck Thornton (until I met the prick).

Haven't seen Mason't book, but if he thinks the "Tiger" attitude got
replaced by something less, he's sadly mistaken. Warriors are
professionals, but they'd better have a healthy dose of attitude.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Jack July 13th 04 05:54 PM

Sam Byrams wrote:

I know what the statistics are, and I don't
care. I suspect Bush Jr's motives were the same
booze, pussy and kerosene!

As a former fighter pilot (or "pilot who flew fighters", compared to
guys like Ed, et al) I wish to disassociate myself from that remark.

It was JP-4, Pussy, and booze -- in that order and with appropriate
nomenclature and capitalization, please.


Jack July 13th 04 06:06 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote:

"No, asshole. The biggest ego blast in the world is walking away
from the jet, sweat-soaked and drained, looking back at the bird
and saying, '**** you. You could have killed me, but you didn't.'
And, knowing that you do something every day that most other humans
don't even begin to conceive of.


"Those square-ass Gulfstream and Lear crews" aren't even
part of the equation.

And _that_ is the truth!


Jack July 13th 04 06:24 PM

Sam Byrams wrote:

But in America the middle class can fly if they want to.

It's just a matter of priorities.

I bought a 30-year old sailplane so I could afford to fly a little
cheaper. Not everybody wants to make that sharp a turn from
single-seat-jet fighter/big-airliner-left-seat to unobtrusive cheap
little go-nowhere, carry-nothing quiet little aircraft, of course.

I recommend Ed and others try it. It's the most actual flying you've
been called upon to do since you safed-up your last gun switch, or
taxied in and shut down after your last engine-out at-or-below minimums
instrument approach at night in a snowstorm.

You'll freakin' love it!


Jack July 13th 04 06:31 PM

Sam Byrams wrote:

[Dr. Joe Bagadonutz is] equally likely to kill himself in a Bonanza for that matter.

Not quite.

Even most Dr.s aren't convinced they can fly a MIG or any real fighter
-- or at least aren't so willing to disprove it. The Bonanza isn't that
tough, after all -- so it's a damn' good thing they are leaving the
fighters, for the most part, alone.

Hell, my Dad owned and flew a Bonanza, and he was only a Major League
baseball player, with a high school education. ;)


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