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-   -   Two MOH Winners say Bush Didn't Serve (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=9357)

Cub Driver June 9th 04 10:27 AM


The issue is that he did not fulfil his obligation.
He clearly did not.


He clearly did. www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

What kind of pathological paranoia causes people to take these
positions?

(I notice it largely comes from people I've already kill-filed, so
evidently it has been apparent for some little time.)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

WalterM140 June 9th 04 10:49 AM

Where is Bush's certificate of Honorable Discharge?

I believe I've seen a copy on one posted on the Internet some time ago. The
real question is how much influence was exerted by his father the Congressman
to
get it issued. The answer to that little question seems to be clouded by
smoke
and mirrors, as our Repug friends are wont to say. Smoke usually coming from
fire, I daresay that his Congressional hand is in it somewhere although I
doubt
that, what with two presidents in the family, the public will ever learn the
truth about it.

George Z.


I was wrong. Officers don't get certificates of "Honorable Discharge". I have
a DD-214 that characterizes my service as honorable. My commission is still in
effect.

I do have two certificates of honorable discharge from when I was enlisted.
They came (as I recall) with little flag lapel pins.

Bush's record is incomplete. CBS has an article that says there are still
holes in it; as far as I -know-, no one has come forward in the Alabama
national guard to collect Gary Trudeau's $10,000 for saying they remember Bush.
However, the link on Doonesbury.com to that "contest" says that it has ended,
buit gives no results.

Bush's CO in Alabama -is- clearly on the record as saying that Bush never
reported to him.

Here is a link to where Bush was counseled that failure to perform adequately
in the Guard could result in involuntary call to active duty.

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc23.gif

Walt

Walt

WalterM140 June 9th 04 10:59 AM

Well, it turns out that no one collected Trudeau's $10,000.

CASE CLOSED: Four weeks ago, "Doonesbury" creator Garry Trudeau announced in
his cartoon strip the "Bush Guard Service" contest: "We're offering $10,000
cash to any witness who can definitively corroborate Mr. Bush's claim" that
three decades before he became President, he served in the Alabama National
Guard. "So if you served with Mr. Bush - even if only in the officers' club -
we want to hear from you right now! Why? So we can put this trash story to rest
and get back to the real issues." Well, it turns out that no credible witness
has come forward to claim the prize, so this week Trudeau mailed a personal
check for $10,000 to the USO. "We're extremely grateful for his generosity,"
USO Vice President John Hansen told me yesterday. But has Trudeau's check
cleared? "Oh, I think he's good for it."

-- Lloyd Grove in the New York Daily News 3/19/04

Walt


WalterM140 June 9th 04 12:06 PM

The issue is that he did not fulfil his obligation.
He clearly did not.


He clearly did. www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

What kind of pathological paranoia causes people to take these
positions?


The facts do. Not one person came forward to collect Trudeau's $10,000 as
having seen Bush in Alabama.

His certificate of service, while characterizing the nature of service as being
honorable, shows he only served 5 years, 4 months and 5 days of a six year
commitment.

What -you- need to show is that Bush did not receive favorable treatment. But
you can't show that, because the Republican smear/cover-up campaign is is full
swing.

You'd think the Bush partisans would have enough sense to just let this drop.

Senator Kerry is a highly decorated WIA veteran of the Viet Nam war, who
volunteered both for the war and for hazardous duty.

The best case scenario for Bush is that he just slid by and did the absolute
-minimum- possible to maintain his commitment -- which he clearly took in order
to avoid the draft.

Walt

Steven P. McNicoll June 9th 04 01:20 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Bush's record is incomplete. CBS has an article that says there are still
holes in it; as far as I -know-, no one has come forward in the Alabama
national guard to collect Gary Trudeau's $10,000 for saying they
remember Bush.


At least one member of that unit did come forward and stated he remembers
Bush performing office work.



Steven P. McNicoll June 9th 04 01:23 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Well, it turns out that no one collected Trudeau's $10,000.


No one was ever going to collect it.



CASE CLOSED: Four weeks ago, "Doonesbury" creator Garry Trudeau announced

in
his cartoon strip the "Bush Guard Service" contest: "We're offering

$10,000
cash to any witness who can definitively corroborate Mr. Bush's claim"

that
three decades before he became President, he served in the Alabama

National
Guard. "So if you served with Mr. Bush - even if only in the officers'

club -
we want to hear from you right now! Why? So we can put this trash story to

rest
and get back to the real issues." Well, it turns out that no credible

witness
has come forward to claim the prize, so this week Trudeau mailed a

personal
check for $10,000 to the USO. "We're extremely grateful for his

generosity,"
USO Vice President John Hansen told me yesterday. But has Trudeau's check
cleared? "Oh, I think he's good for it."

-- Lloyd Grove in the New York Daily News 3/19/04


At least one member of that unit did come forward and stated he remembered
Bush performing office work.



George Z. Bush June 9th 04 03:01 PM

WalterM140 wrote:

Where is Bush's certificate of Honorable Discharge?


I believe I've seen a copy on one posted on the Internet some time ago. The
real question is how much influence was exerted by his father the Congressman
to
get it issued. The answer to that little question seems to be clouded by
smoke
and mirrors, as our Repug friends are wont to say. Smoke usually coming from
fire, I daresay that his Congressional hand is in it somewhere although I
doubt
that, what with two presidents in the family, the public will ever learn the
truth about it.

George Z.


I was wrong. Officers don't get certificates of "Honorable Discharge". I
have a DD-214 that characterizes my service as honorable.


You're right, of course, and I'm embarrassed to admit that I made the same
mistake you did. All I got was a 214 and a special order announcing or
authorizing (I've forgotten the term used) my retirement.

George Z.



Steven P. McNicoll June 9th 04 03:32 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

The facts do.


The facts indicate Bush fulfilled his service commitment.



Not one person came forward to collect Trudeau's $10,000 as
having seen Bush in Alabama.


At least one did.



Steven P. McNicoll June 9th 04 03:42 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Bush's record is incomplete. CBS has an article that says there are still
holes in it; as far as I -know-, no one has come forward in the Alabama
national guard to collect Gary Trudeau's $10,000 for saying they
remember Bush.


http://makeashorterlink.com/?F22924488


Former Guardsman: Bush served with me in Alabama

By the Associated Press

A retired Alabama Air National Guard officer said Friday that he remembers
George Bush showing up for duty in Alabama in 1972, reading safety magazines
and flight manuals in an office as he performed his weekend obligations.
"I saw him each drill period," retired Lt. Col. John "Bill" Calhoun said in
a telephone interview with The Associated Press from Daytona Beach, Fla.,
where he is preparing to watch this weekend's big NASCAR race.

"He was very aggressive about doing his duty there. He never complained
about it. ... He was very dedicated to what he was doing in the Guard. He
showed up on time and he left at the end of the day."

Calhoun, whose name was supplied to the AP by a Republican close to Bush, is
the first member of the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group to recall Bush
distinctly at the Alabama base in the period of 1972-1973. He was the unit's
flight safety officer.

The 69-year-old president of an Atlanta insulation company said Bush showed
up for work at Dannelly Air National Guard Base for drills on at least six
occasions. Bush and Calhoun had both been trained as fighter pilots, and
Calhoun said the two would swap "war stories" and even eat lunch together on
base.

Calhoun is named in 187th unit rosters obtained by the AP as serving under
the deputy commander of operations plans. Bush was in Alabama on non-flying
status.

"He sat in my office most of the time - he would read," Calhoun said. "He
had your training manuals from your aircraft he was flying. He'd study those
some. He'd read safety magazines, which is a common thing for pilots."

Democrats have asked for proof that Bush, then a 1st lieutenant with the
Texas Air National Guard, turned up for duty in Alabama, where Bush had
asked to be assigned while he worked on the U.S. Senate campaign of family
friend Winton "Red" Blount.

Pay and medical records released by the White House this week failed to
quash allegations that Bush shirked his Guard responsibilities. (Related
story: Bush's driving records disclosed)

The 187th's former commander, retired Brig. Gen. William Turnipseed, has
said he doesn't remember Bush ever turning up on base, and more than a dozen
members of the 800-person unit, including its commander, told The Associated
Press this week they have no recollection of Bush. Critics have made much of
the fact that the White House has failed to produce anyone who could
remember seeing Bush there.

Calhoun said he contacted Texas GOP leaders with his story in 2000 when the
issue was raised just before the November general election.

"I got on the phone and got information and called Austin, Texas, and talked
to the Republican campaign. They said I was talking to the campaign
manager," he said. "I told him my story and said I would be glad to provide
information to that effect. At that time they said ... The story is not
true. And we don't think it's got enough weight to stay out as a story.' And
they said, 'But if it does we'll call you back.' And I never heard from them
again."

Last week as the issue raged again, Calhoun sent an e-mail to the White
House offering to tell his story. "I got a response back, one of those
automatic responses," he said. It wasn't until his wife contacted Georgia
GOP officials that Calhoun's name surfaced.

White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Friday that the White House
was not making any effort to try to locate people who might have served with
Bush. He also accused reporters of trying to raise new lines of questioning,
beyond whether Bush served in Alabama.

Critics have suggested that Bush used his family connections to get the safe
Guard assignment ahead of thousands of others. But Calhoun said Bush never
mentioned his congressman father while they sat together at Dannelly.

"I knew he was working in the senatorial campaign, and I asked him if he was
going to be a politician," said Calhoun, who is a staunch Republican. "And
he said, 'I don't know. Probably.'"

Calhoun has not made any donations to Bush this election season or during
the 2000 season, according to campaign finance records.




Steven P. McNicoll June 9th 04 03:44 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Well, it turns out that no one collected Trudeau's $10,000.

CASE CLOSED: Four weeks ago, "Doonesbury" creator Garry Trudeau announced

in
his cartoon strip the "Bush Guard Service" contest: "We're offering

$10,000
cash to any witness who can definitively corroborate Mr. Bush's claim"

that
three decades before he became President, he served in the Alabama

National
Guard. "So if you served with Mr. Bush - even if only in the officers'

club -
we want to hear from you right now! Why? So we can put this trash story to

rest
and get back to the real issues." Well, it turns out that no credible

witness
has come forward to claim the prize, so this week Trudeau mailed a

personal
check for $10,000 to the USO. "We're extremely grateful for his

generosity,"
USO Vice President John Hansen told me yesterday. But has Trudeau's check
cleared? "Oh, I think he's good for it."

-- Lloyd Grove in the New York Daily News 3/19/04


Do you have any idea why Trudeau reneged?


http://makeashorterlink.com/?F22924488


Former Guardsman: Bush served with me in Alabama

By the Associated Press

A retired Alabama Air National Guard officer said Friday that he remembers
George Bush showing up for duty in Alabama in 1972, reading safety magazines
and flight manuals in an office as he performed his weekend obligations.
"I saw him each drill period," retired Lt. Col. John "Bill" Calhoun said in
a telephone interview with The Associated Press from Daytona Beach, Fla.,
where he is preparing to watch this weekend's big NASCAR race.

"He was very aggressive about doing his duty there. He never complained
about it. ... He was very dedicated to what he was doing in the Guard. He
showed up on time and he left at the end of the day."

Calhoun, whose name was supplied to the AP by a Republican close to Bush, is
the first member of the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group to recall Bush
distinctly at the Alabama base in the period of 1972-1973. He was the unit's
flight safety officer.

The 69-year-old president of an Atlanta insulation company said Bush showed
up for work at Dannelly Air National Guard Base for drills on at least six
occasions. Bush and Calhoun had both been trained as fighter pilots, and
Calhoun said the two would swap "war stories" and even eat lunch together on
base.

Calhoun is named in 187th unit rosters obtained by the AP as serving under
the deputy commander of operations plans. Bush was in Alabama on non-flying
status.

"He sat in my office most of the time - he would read," Calhoun said. "He
had your training manuals from your aircraft he was flying. He'd study those
some. He'd read safety magazines, which is a common thing for pilots."

Democrats have asked for proof that Bush, then a 1st lieutenant with the
Texas Air National Guard, turned up for duty in Alabama, where Bush had
asked to be assigned while he worked on the U.S. Senate campaign of family
friend Winton "Red" Blount.

Pay and medical records released by the White House this week failed to
quash allegations that Bush shirked his Guard responsibilities. (Related
story: Bush's driving records disclosed)

The 187th's former commander, retired Brig. Gen. William Turnipseed, has
said he doesn't remember Bush ever turning up on base, and more than a dozen
members of the 800-person unit, including its commander, told The Associated
Press this week they have no recollection of Bush. Critics have made much of
the fact that the White House has failed to produce anyone who could
remember seeing Bush there.

Calhoun said he contacted Texas GOP leaders with his story in 2000 when the
issue was raised just before the November general election.

"I got on the phone and got information and called Austin, Texas, and talked
to the Republican campaign. They said I was talking to the campaign
manager," he said. "I told him my story and said I would be glad to provide
information to that effect. At that time they said ... The story is not
true. And we don't think it's got enough weight to stay out as a story.' And
they said, 'But if it does we'll call you back.' And I never heard from them
again."

Last week as the issue raged again, Calhoun sent an e-mail to the White
House offering to tell his story. "I got a response back, one of those
automatic responses," he said. It wasn't until his wife contacted Georgia
GOP officials that Calhoun's name surfaced.

White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Friday that the White House
was not making any effort to try to locate people who might have served with
Bush. He also accused reporters of trying to raise new lines of questioning,
beyond whether Bush served in Alabama.

Critics have suggested that Bush used his family connections to get the safe
Guard assignment ahead of thousands of others. But Calhoun said Bush never
mentioned his congressman father while they sat together at Dannelly.

"I knew he was working in the senatorial campaign, and I asked him if he was
going to be a politician," said Calhoun, who is a staunch Republican. "And
he said, 'I don't know. Probably.'"

Calhoun has not made any donations to Bush this election season or during
the 2000 season, according to campaign finance records.




Tammy June 9th 04 04:06 PM

I know that Kerry earned four or five medals for bravery under fire or
similar action. Does anyone know how many medals for heroism Cheney
and Bush earned. I heard that it was less than Kerry.

(WalterM140) wrote in message ...
Where is Bush's certificate of Honorable Discharge?


I believe I've seen a copy on one posted on the Internet some time ago. The
real question is how much influence was exerted by his father the Congressman
to
get it issued. The answer to that little question seems to be clouded by
smoke
and mirrors, as our Repug friends are wont to say. Smoke usually coming from
fire, I daresay that his Congressional hand is in it somewhere although I
doubt
that, what with two presidents in the family, the public will ever learn the
truth about it.

George Z.


I was wrong. Officers don't get certificates of "Honorable Discharge". I have
a DD-214 that characterizes my service as honorable. My commission is still in
effect.

I do have two certificates of honorable discharge from when I was enlisted.
They came (as I recall) with little flag lapel pins.

Bush's record is incomplete. CBS has an article that says there are still
holes in it; as far as I -know-, no one has come forward in the Alabama
national guard to collect Gary Trudeau's $10,000 for saying they remember Bush.
However, the link on Doonesbury.com to that "contest" says that it has ended,
buit gives no results.

Bush's CO in Alabama -is- clearly on the record as saying that Bush never
reported to him.

Here is a link to where Bush was counseled that failure to perform adequately
in the Guard could result in involuntary call to active duty.

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc23.gif

Walt

Walt


Steven P. McNicoll June 9th 04 04:14 PM


"Tammy" wrote in message
om...

I know that Kerry earned four or five medals for bravery under fire or
similar action. Does anyone know how many medals for heroism Cheney
and Bush earned. I heard that it was less than Kerry.


It appears some of those awards were likely unearned. Have you heard why
Kerry didn't complete his Vietnam service?



OXMORON1 June 9th 04 04:30 PM

Tammy blurted:
I know that Kerry earned four or five medals for bravery under fire or
similar action. Does anyone know how many medals for heroism Cheney
and Bush earned. I heard that it was less than Kerry.


Did you also know that Mr. Kerry also stupidly and recklessly risked his men
and warship to win the medals? But, by gosh he secured that RPG launcher, even
if it was empty.
Plus, consider anyone who defames the Secret Service guy out there to protect
him, due to his own"skill" at snow sports, seems like a real ass who we really
need to run this country.
I also don't like his shoes! They flip flop a lot and are distracting.
Also while we are at it Hienz pickles suck!

oxmoron1
MFE

B2431 June 9th 04 07:10 PM

From: (WalterM140)


The issue is that he did not fulfil his obligation.
He clearly did not.


He clearly did.
www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

What kind of pathological paranoia causes people to take these
positions?


The facts do. Not one person came forward to collect Trudeau's $10,000 as
having seen Bush in Alabama.


This proves what? People have come forward saying they saw him there. If it
were me I wouldn't accept the money.


His certificate of service, while characterizing the nature of service as
being
honorable, shows he only served 5 years, 4 months and 5 days of a six year
commitment.


Kerry also took an early out. Many people do. I took teriminal leave and
permissive TDY adding up to over 4 months. Does this mean I was let out early?


What -you- need to show is that Bush did not receive favorable treatment.
But
you can't show that, because the Republican smear/cover-up campaign is is
full
swing.


Ah yes, the "vast right wing conspiracy." Can you prove factually he did
receive special treatment? I mean something beyound "he was the son of a rich
oil man" or some such drivel.


You'd think the Bush partisans would have enough sense to just let this drop.


The people who keep bringing it up are on the other side. Read the thread name.


Senator Kerry is a highly decorated WIA veteran of the Viet Nam war, who
volunteered both for the war and for hazardous duty.

No one has argued that. Funny how the Kerry supporters always bring that up any
time he is criticised about any thing includeing his voting record in the
Senate, isn't it? For every man in the field in Viet Nam there was another
dozen or so in country who wasn't. Was there service any less honourable or
important than theirs?

The best case scenario for Bush is that he just slid by and did the absolute
-minimum- possible to maintain his commitment -- which he clearly took in
order
to avoid the draft.

Walt


OK, by my volunteering for active duty I avoided the draft too as did all the
other volunteers.

Since guardsmen and reservists DID serve in Viet Nam Bush was at risk. I have
an idea take a look at the number of reservists and guardsmen killed in Viet
Nam. You will find their names on the wall in D.C. if you care to look.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

B2431 June 9th 04 07:19 PM

From: (WalterM140)

snip

However, the link on Doonesbury.com to that "contest" says that it has
ended,
buit gives no results.


Maybe he accepts the fact Bush was there.

Bush's CO in Alabama -is- clearly on the record as saying that Bush never
reported to him.

Here is a link to where Bush was counseled that failure to perform adequately
in the Guard could result in involuntary call to active duty.

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc23.gif

Walt

Firstly that document is incomplete. Secondly nowhere does it sound like a LOC.
I have written my share of LOCs and the tenor is "you are" not "I am."
Thirdly officers are not enlistees.

As a WAG I'd say that looks more like a letter one would have to sign prior to
entering the Guard.

In any event what is the source of the document and where is the rest of it?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Steven P. McNicoll June 9th 04 07:20 PM


"B2431" wrote in message
...

Kerry also took an early out. Many people do. I took teriminal leave and
permissive TDY adding up to over 4 months. Does this mean I was let
out early?


" I am saddened by the fact that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into
the
campaign, and that it has been inserted in what I feel to be the worst
possible way. By that I mean that yesterday, during this Presidential
campaign, and even throughout recent times, Vietnam has been discussed and
written about without an adequate statement of its full meaning."

"We do not need to divide America over who served and how. I have
personally always believed that many served in many different ways. Someone
who was deeply against the war in 1969 or 1970 may well have served their
country with equal passion and patriotism by opposing the war as by fighting
in it. Are we now, 20 years or 30 years later, to forget the difficulties of
that time, of families that were literally torn apart, of brothers who
ceased to talk to brothers, of fathers who disowned their sons, of people
who felt compelled to leave the country and forget their own future and turn
against the will of their own aspirations?"

Senator John Kerry, Jan 30, 1992



Ed Rasimus June 9th 04 10:04 PM

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 18:20:22 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:



" I am saddened by the fact that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into
the
campaign, and that it has been inserted in what I feel to be the worst
possible way. By that I mean that yesterday, during this Presidential
campaign, and even throughout recent times, Vietnam has been discussed and
written about without an adequate statement of its full meaning."


Ahh, yes. That from he who repeatedly inserts Vietnam into the
campaign. How duplicitous.

"We do not need to divide America over who served and how. I have
personally always believed that many served in many different ways. Someone
who was deeply against the war in 1969 or 1970 may well have served their
country with equal passion and patriotism by opposing the war as by fighting
in it. Are we now, 20 years or 30 years later, to forget the difficulties of
that time, of families that were literally torn apart, of brothers who
ceased to talk to brothers, of fathers who disowned their sons, of people
who felt compelled to leave the country and forget their own future and turn
against the will of their own aspirations?"

Senator John Kerry, Jan 30, 1992


Why do I feel this strong urge to regurgitate?

From one of Kerry's accused war criminals...

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Steven P. McNicoll June 9th 04 10:28 PM


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...

From one of Kerry's accused war criminals...


"I committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others
in that I shot in free fire zones, used harassment and interdiction fire,
joined in search and destroy missions, and burned villages. All of these
acts were established policies from the top down, and the men who ordered
this are war criminals."

"I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and
say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over
150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified
to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents
but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of
officers at all levels of command."

John Kerry, April 1971



Ed Rasimus June 9th 04 11:14 PM

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 21:28:33 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .

From one of Kerry's accused war criminals...


"I committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others
in that I shot in free fire zones, used harassment and interdiction fire,
joined in search and destroy missions, and burned villages. All of these
acts were established policies from the top down, and the men who ordered
this are war criminals."

"I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and
say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over
150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified
to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents
but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of
officers at all levels of command."

John Kerry, April 1971


Yeah, ain't war a bitch.

And, wasn't it amazing how many of those "honorably discharged and
....highly decorated..." assholes turned out to be wannabes and
neverweres.

Just last month in Nashville, I met with seven hundred combat aviators
from that conflict who wouldn't urinate on Kerry if he were aflame.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

B2431 June 10th 04 02:58 AM

From: Ed Rasimus

snip

Just last month in Nashville, I met with seven hundred combat aviators
from that conflict who wouldn't urinate on Kerry if he were aflame.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8



Isn't burning politicians a violation of EPA?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Ron June 10th 04 03:18 AM

Just last month in Nashville, I met with seven hundred combat aviators
from that conflict who wouldn't urinate on Kerry if he were aflame.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8


Well is drinking Turpentine first allowed?


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
Silver City Tanker Base


WalterM140 June 10th 04 09:21 AM

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

I believe I've seen a copy on one posted on the Internet some time
ago. The real question is how much influence was exerted by his father
the Congressman to get it issued.


Well, since his father wasn't a Congressman at the time, the answer has to
be, "None".


Bush was released after 5 years, 4 months and five days of a six year
commitment.

If he didn't get special favor, how did that happen?

Walt

Cub Driver June 10th 04 10:15 AM


The facts do. Not one person came forward to collect Trudeau's $10,000 as
having seen Bush in Alabama.


This proves what? People have come forward saying they saw him there. If it
were me I wouldn't accept the money.


Nobody gets to COLLECT the money. Trudeau was giving it to a charity
of his choice.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

WalterM140 June 10th 04 11:10 AM

Did you also know that Mr. Kerry also stupidly and recklessly risked his men
and warship to win the medals?


Here's the narrative portion of Kerry's fitrep:

"In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG
(Lieutenant Junior Grade) Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics
and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every
opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat
operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly
assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush.
This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIAs.

LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing
and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the
Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training
programs.

During this period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star
medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards).

18 Dec 1969"

http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp



Walt

WalterM140 June 10th 04 11:11 AM

Not one person came forward to collect Trudeau's $10,000 as
having seen Bush in Alabama.


At least one did.


Trudeau donated the money to the USO.

Walt

WalterM140 June 10th 04 11:12 AM

Ah yes, the "vast right wing conspiracy."

Yes.

"Donald H. Segretti (born September 17, 1941) was a political operative for the
Nixon White House during the 1970s. Segretti ran a campaign of dirty tricks
against the Democrats. His actions were part of the larger Watergate Scandal.

He went to prison in 1974 after pleading guilty to three misdemeanor counts of
distributing illegal campaign literature. A major part of this was a faked
letter on Edmund Muskie's letterhead falsely alleging that senator Henry
"Scoop" Jackson had had an illegitimate child with a 17-year-old.

Segretti was a lawyer — initially a prosecutor for the military and later as
a civilian. However, his license was suspended for two years following his
conviction. In 1995, he briefly ran for a local judgeship in Orange County,
California. He withdrew from the race shortly after his campign received
publicity, which awakened lingering anger over his involvement in the scandal."


--wikipdeia

"It's no accident that Karl Rove was one of Richard Nixon's moles. Using
techniques developed by his first mentor, dirty-tricks strategist Donald
Segretti, Rove infiltrated Democratic organizations on behalf of Nixon's
infamous 1972 campaign. Rove's formidable talents came to the attention of
George Bush Senior, then incoming Republican National Committee chairman, and
the rest is history. Seven presidential campaigns later, Rove masterminded a
deluge of disinformation against John McCain, whose upset victory in New
Hampshire had given him a shot at the Republican nomination. Word was spread
among South Carolina voters that McCain had fathered a black daughter out of
wedlock (McCain had, in fact, adopted a Bangladeshi girl), that McCain was a
homosexual, that McCain's wife had a drug problem and so on.

Now Rove is masterminding the Bush administration's press strategy, but it's
far more than a press strategy. It's the central strategy for how the public
understands what George W. Bush is doing to and for America. In an important
sense, it is the Bush presidency. Rove's methodology largely explains why
Bush's popularity remains strong despite the unremittingly awful economy
(mounting job losses, weak profits and a three-year stock-market slide) and
despite the shambles of the administration's foreign policy (Osama bin Laden
still at large, al-Qaeda as dangerous as ever, North Korea more menacing than
ever, Israelis and Palestinians as far away from the bargaining table as ever,
anti-Americanism rising across the globe and a pending war in Iraq lacking
clear justification)."

http://www.prospect.org/print/V14/2/reich-r.html

People should be very skeptical of anyone coming forward -now- to support a 30
year old story that the contemporary records do not support.

Walt


WalterM140 June 10th 04 11:14 AM

Nobody gets to COLLECT the money. Trudeau was giving it to a charity
of his choice.


You wouldn't donate $10,000 to the USO if all you had to do was contact Gary
Trudeau with a valid story?

Walt



B2431 June 10th 04 11:16 AM

From: (WalterM140)
Date: 6/10/2004 3:21 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

I believe I've seen a copy on one posted on the Internet some time
ago. The real question is how much influence was exerted by his father
the Congressman to get it issued.


Well, since his father wasn't a Congressman at the time, the answer has to
be, "None".


Bush was released after 5 years, 4 months and five days of a six year
commitment.

If he didn't get special favor, how did that happen?

Walt


Many people get early outs for various reasons with no political pull. It
happens all the tim. Kerry was let out early to go to school. At the time I
retired in 1994 it could still be done. Ok, so it's a special favour and one
has to apply for it, but what's the big deal? It does happen.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


WalterM140 June 10th 04 11:17 AM

Here is a link to where Bush was counseled that failure to perform
adequately
in the Guard could result in involuntary call to active duty.

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc23.gif

Walt



Firstly that document is incomplete. Secondly nowhere does it sound like a
LOC.
I have written my share of LOCs and the tenor is "you are" not "I am."
Thirdly officers are not enlistees.



Bush did enlist in the Guard. Per the link that someone provided, he did six
weeks of basic.

Actually, the link I provided sounds like to sort of boilerplate CYA language
that every enlistee would sign. Upon reflection, there's no stigma in
signing it, eveyone would sign such a document. Then you couldn't whine that
no one ever told you you could be forced onto involuntary active duty.

As a WAG I'd say that looks more like a letter one would have to sign prior
to
entering the Guard.


You're right.

Walt

George Z. Bush June 10th 04 12:34 PM

WalterM140 wrote:
"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

I believe I've seen a copy on one posted on the Internet some time
ago. The real question is how much influence was exerted by his father
the Congressman to get it issued.


Well, since his father wasn't a Congressman at the time, the answer has to
be, "None".


Even if he wasn't, that doesn't mean that he threw away the phone numbers of all
those people he had influence with when he was in office. That kind of people
would still be susceptible to a bit of informal or indirect pressure.....after
all, none of them could be sure that an out-of-office congressman might not run
for Senator or President some day, and it's always good to have some markers out
for past favors given, isn't it.

Although he was no longer a congressman in 1973, would you care to guess what
position of political influence he occupied at that time? Would you believe
"Chairman of the Republican National Committee"? Do you still think nobody
would listen when he called?

You may think the answer is "none" but politcally less-naive folks would
probably welcome the opportunity to argue the point with you. Alas, the world
of politics is not filled with Boy Scouts.

George Z.



George Z. Bush June 10th 04 12:39 PM


Did you also know that Mr. Kerry also stupidly and recklessly risked his men
and warship to win the medals?


Isn't it hilarious how "stupidly and recklessly" impressed the awarding
authorities so much that they approved the award of a Silver Star and a Bronze
Star to him? But what do those jerks know, right? They were just Navy captains
and admirals.

George Z.



George Z. Bush June 10th 04 12:52 PM


Nobody gets to COLLECT the money. Trudeau was giving it to a charity
of his choice.


That's true....the contest rules were that if someone presented credible and
valid evidence of Bush's military service, the money would be donated in his
name to the USO. Here's the rule and, if you don't believe me, I've also
included the link so you can see for yourself:

"Q: Is there some sort of hitch?
A: Well, yes, but it's a hitch for a good cause. The winner won't actually
receive the reward for himself; instead we'll be donating $10,000 in his name to
the USO. That way everyone's a winner, including GBT's tax accountant"

http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/bush_guard.html

He only gave it to the USO after unsuccessfully waiting for months for somebody
to come forward with some credible evidence. When nobody did, he turned the
money over to the USO even though there was no winner.

George Z.



Ed Rasimus June 10th 04 02:54 PM

On 10 Jun 2004 02:18:52 GMT, 362436 (Ron) wrote:

Just last month in Nashville, I met with seven hundred combat aviators
from that conflict who wouldn't urinate on Kerry if he were aflame.


Ed Rasimus


Well is drinking Turpentine first allowed?


Ron


I think they had some in the hospitality suite.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus June 10th 04 02:57 PM

On 10 Jun 2004 08:21:52 GMT, (WalterM140) wrote:


Bush was released after 5 years, 4 months and five days of a six year
commitment.

If he didn't get special favor, how did that happen?


And Kerry was released from active duty after how long?

Let's put the time in context. The Vietnam War had ended, the
requirements for the military were being cut back. The TANG was
converting from F-102 to F-101 requiring retraining and the training
was longer than Bush' remaining service commitment. The Guard allows
transfers from active to inactive. "Early Out" programs were rampant.

Get over it.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus June 10th 04 03:05 PM

On 10 Jun 2004 10:10:21 GMT, (WalterM140) wrote:

Here's the narrative portion of Kerry's fitrep:

"In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG
(Lieutenant Junior Grade) Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics
and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every
opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat
operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly
assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush.
This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIAs.

LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing
and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the
Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training
programs.

During this period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star
medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards).

18 Dec 1969"


Did you read these from Swift Boat Commanders on Kerry that I posted a
few days ago?


"We resent very deeply the false war crimes charges he made coming back from Vietnam in 1971 and repeated in the book "Tour of Duty." We think those cast an aspersion on all those living and dead, from our unit and other units in Vietnam. We think that he knew he was lying when he made the charges, and we think that they're unsupportable. We intend to bring the truth about that to the American people.


We believe, based on our experience with him, that he is totally unfit to be the Commander-in-Chief."


-- John O'Neill, spokesman, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth


"I do not believe John Kerry is fit to be Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces of the United States. This is not a political issue. It is a matter of his judgment, truthfulness, reliability, loyalty and trust -- all absolute tenets of command. His biography, 'Tour of Duty,' by Douglas Brinkley, is replete with gross exaggerations, distortions of fact, contradictions and slanderous lies. His contempt for the military and authority is evident by even a most casual review of this biography. He arrived in-country with a strong anti-Vietnam War bias and a self-serving determination to build a foundation for his political future. He was aggressive, but vain and prone to impulsive judgment, often with disregard for specific tactical assignments. He was a 'loose cannon.' In an abbreviated tour of four months and 12 days, and with his specious medals secure, Lt.(jg) Kerry bugged out and began his infamous betrayal of all United States forces in the Vietnam War. That included our soldiers,

our marines, our sailors, our coast guardsmen, our airmen, and our POWs. His leadership within the so-called Vietnam Veterans Against the War and testimony before Congress in 1971 charging us with unspeakable atrocities remain an undocumented but nevertheless meticulous stain on the men and women who honorably stayed the course. Senator Kerry is not fit for command."

-- Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman, USN (retired), chairman, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth


"During Lt.(jg) Kerry's tour, he was under my command for two or three specific operations, before his rapid exit. Trust, loyalty and judgment are the key, operative words. His turncoat performance in 1971 in his grubby shirt and his medal-tossing escapade, coupled with his slanderous lines in the recent book portraying us that served, including all POWs and MIAs, as murderous war criminals, I believe, will have a lasting effect on all military veterans and their families.


Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing, manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive, but the most common phrase that you'd hear is 'requires constant supervision.'"


-- Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired)


"Thirty-five years ago, many of us fell silent when we came back to the stain of sewage that Mr. Kerry had thrown on us, and all of our colleagues who served over there. I don't intend to be silent today or ever again. Our young men and women who are serving deserve no less."


-- Andrew Horne


"In my specific, personal experience in both coastal and river patrols over a 12-month period, I never once saw or heard anything remotely resembling the atrocities described by Senator Kerry. If I had, it would have been my obligation to report them in writing to a higher authority, and I would certainly have done that. If Senator Kerry actually witnessed or participated in these atrocities or, as he described them, 'war crimes,' he was obligated to report them. That he did not until later when it suited his political purposes strikes me as opportunism of the worst kind. That he would malign my service and that of his fellow sailors with no regard for the truth makes him totally unqualified to serve as Commander-in-Chief."


-- Jeffrey Wainscott


"I signed that letter because I, too felt a deep sense of betrayal that someone who took the same oath of loyalty as I did as an officer in the United States Navy would abandon his group here (points to group photo) to join this group here (points to VVAW protest photo), and come home and attempt to rally the American public against the effort that this group was so valiantly pursuing.


It is a fact that in the entire Vietnam War we did not lose one major battle. We lost the war at home... and at home, John Kerry was the Field General."


-- Robert Elder


"My daughters and my wife have read portions of the book 'Tour of Duty.' They wanted to know if I took part in the atrocities described. I do not believe the things that are described happened.


Let me give you an example. In Brinkley's book, on pages 170 to 171, about something called the 'Bo De massacre' on November 24th of 1968... In Kerry's description of the engagement, first he claimed there were 17 servicemen that were wounded. Three of us were wounded. I was the first..."


-- Joseph Ponder


"While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour indoctrination missions, and one special skimmer operation with my most senior and trusted Lieutenant. The briefing from some members of that crew the morning after revealed that they had not received any enemy fire, and yet Lt.(jg) Kerry informed me of a wound -- he showed me a scratch on his arm and a piece of shrapnel in his hand that appeared to be from one of our own M-79s. It was later reported to me that Lt.(jg) Kerry had fired an M-79, and it had exploded off the adjacent shoreline. I do not recall being advised of any medical treatment, and probably said something like 'Forget it.' He later received a Purple Heart for that scratch, and I have no information as to how or whom.


Lt.(jg) Kerry was allowed to return to the good old USA after 4 months and a few days in-country, and then he proceeded to betray his former shipmates, calling them criminals who were committing atrocities. Today we are here to tell you that just the opposite is true. Our rules of engagement were quite strict, and the officers and men of Swift often did not even return fire when they were under fire if there was a possibility that innocent people -- fishermen, in a lot of cases -- might be hurt or injured. The rules and the good intentions of the men increased the possibility that we might take friendly casualties."


-- Commander Grant Hibbard, USN (retired)


"Lt. Kerry returned home from the war to make some outrageous statements and allegations... of numerous criminal acts in violation of the law of war were cited by Kerry, disparaging those who had fought with honor in that conflict. Had war crimes been committed by US forces in Vietnam? Yes, but such acts were few and far between. Yet Lt. Kerry have numerous speeches and testimony before Congress inappropriately leading his audiences to believe that what was only an anomaly in the conduct of America's fighting men was an epidemic. Furthermore, he suggested that they were being encouraged to violated the law of war by those within the chain of command.


Very specific orders, on file at the Vietnam archives at Texas Tech University, were issued by my father [Admiral Elmo Zumwalt] and others in his chain of command instructing subordinates to act responsibly in preserving the life and property of Vietnamese civilians."


-- Lt. Col. James Zumwalt, USMC (retired)


"We look at Vietnam... after all these years it is still languishing in isolated poverty and helplessness and tyranny. This is John Kerry's legacy. I deeply resent John Kerry's using his Swift boat experience, and his betrayal of those who fought there as a stepping-stone to his political ambitions."


-- Barnard Wolff


"In a whole year that I spent patrolling, I didn't see anything like a war crime, an atrocity, anything like that. Time and again I saw American fighting men put themselves in graver danger trying to avoid... collateral damage.


When John Kerry returned to the country, he was sworn in front of Congress. And then he told my family -- my parents, my sister, my brother, my neighbors -- he told everyone I knew and everyone I'd ever know that I and my comrades had committed unspeakable atrocities."


-- David Wallace


"I served with these guys. I went on missions with them, and these men served honorably. Up and down the chain of command there was no acquiescence to atrocities. It was not condoned, it did not happen, and it was not reported to me verbally or in writing by any of these men including Lt.(jg) Kerry.


In 1971, '72, for almost 18 months, he stood before the television audiences and claimed that the 500,000 men and women in Vietnam, and in combat, were all villains -- there were no heroes. In 2004, one hero from the Vietnam War has appeared, running for President of the United States and Commander-in-Chief. It just galls one to think about it."


-- Captain George Elliott, USN (retired)


"During the Vietnam War I was Task Force Commander at An Thoi, and my tour of duty was 13 months, from the end of Tet to the beginning of the Vietnamization of the Navy units.


Now when I went there right after Tet, I was restricted in my movements. I couldn't go much of anyplace because the Vietcong controlled most of the area. When I left, I could go anywhere I wanted, just about. Commerce was booming, the buses were running, trucks were going, the waterways were filled with sampans with goods going to market, but yet in Kerry's biography he says that our operations were a complete failure. He also mentions a formal conference with me, to try to get more air cover and so on. That conference never happened..."


-- Captain Adrian Lonsdale, USCG (retired)


"I was in An Thoi from June of '68 to June of '69, covering the whole period that John Kerry was there. I operated in every river, in every canal, and every off-shore patrol area in the 4th Corps area, from Cambodia all the way around to the Bo De River. I never saw, even heard of all of these so-called atrocities and things that we were supposed to have done.


This is not true. We're not standing for it. We want to set the record straight."


-- William Shumadine


"In 1971, when John Kerry spoke out to America, labeling all Vietnam veterans as thugs and murderers, I was shocked and almost brought to my knees, because even though I had served at the same time and same unit, I had never witnessed or participated in any of the events that the Senator had accused us of. I strongly believe that the statements made by the Senator were not only false and inaccurate, but extremely harmful to the United States' efforts in Southeast Asia and the rest of the world. Tragically, some veterans, scorned by the antiwar movement and their allies, retreated to a life of despair and suicide. Two of my crewmates were among them. For that there is no forgiveness. "


-- Richard O'Meara


"My name is Steve Gardner. I served in 1966 and 1967 on my first tour of duty in Vietnam on Swift boats, and I did my second tour in '68 and '69, involved with John Kerry in the last 2 1/2 months of my tour. The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"


-- Steven Gardner


"I served in Vietnam as a boat officer from June of 1968 to July of 1969. My service was three months in Coastal Division 13 out of Cat Lo, and nine months with Coastal Division 11 based in An Thoi. John Kerry was in An Thoi the same time I was. I'm here today to express the anger I have harbored for over 33 years, about being accused with my fellow shipmates of war atrocities.


All I can say is when I leave here today, I'm going down to the Wall to tell my two crew members it's not true, and that they and the other 49 Swiftees who are on the Wall were then and are still now the best."


-- Robert Brant


"I never saw, heard of, or participated in any Swift boat crews killing cattle, poisoning crops, or raping and killing civilians as charged by John Kerry, both in his book and in public statements. Since we both operated at the same time, in the same general area, and on the same missions under the same commanders, it is hard to believe his claims of atrocities and poor planning of Sea Lord missions.


I signed this letter because I feel that he used Swift boat sailors to proclaim his antiwar statements after the war, and now he uses the same Swift boat sailors to support his claims of being a war hero. He cannot have it both ways, and we are here to ask for full disclosure of the proof of his claims."


-- James Steffes


Your hero called his "brothers in arms" war criminals and accused us
without foundation of atrocities. He gave aid and comfort to the enemy
when half a million Americans were still in harm's way. He's enshrined
in the War Museum in Hanoi for his support of the regime during the
war years.

And, he did it all for political gain. When it suited him to be
anti-war, he was. When it suits him today to be a "hero" of Vietnam,
he dons that mantle.

He is a man without honor.




Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus June 10th 04 03:05 PM

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 07:39:44 -0400, "George Z. Bush"
wrote:


Did you also know that Mr. Kerry also stupidly and recklessly risked his men
and warship to win the medals?


Isn't it hilarious how "stupidly and recklessly" impressed the awarding
authorities so much that they approved the award of a Silver Star and a Bronze
Star to him? But what do those jerks know, right? They were just Navy captains
and admirals.

George Z.

Dare we bring up LBJ's Silver Star?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Steven P. McNicoll June 10th 04 03:33 PM


"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

That's true....the contest rules were that if someone presented credible
and valid evidence of Bush's military service, the money would be
donated in his name to the USO. Here's the rule and, if you don't believe
me, I've also included the link so you can see for yourself:

"Q: Is there some sort of hitch?
A: Well, yes, but it's a hitch for a good cause. The winner won't actually
receive the reward for himself; instead we'll be donating $10,000 in his
name to the USO. That way everyone's a winner, including GBT's tax
accountant"

http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/bush_guard.html


That site states; "That's right, we're offering $10,000 cash! Yours to
either spend or invest in job creation. All you have to do is definitively
prove that George W. Bush fulfilled his duty to country."



He only gave it to the USO after unsuccessfully waiting for months for
somebody to come forward with some credible evidence. When
nobody did, he turned the money over to the USO even though there
was no winner.


But someone did come forward with some credible evidence. Did Trudeau make
the donation in the name of John Calhoun or did he renege on his promise?


http://makeashorterlink.com/?F22924488


Former Guardsman: Bush served with me in Alabama

By the Associated Press

A retired Alabama Air National Guard officer said Friday that he remembers
George Bush showing up for duty in Alabama in 1972, reading safety magazines
and flight manuals in an office as he performed his weekend obligations.
"I saw him each drill period," retired Lt. Col. John "Bill" Calhoun said in
a telephone interview with The Associated Press from Daytona Beach, Fla.,
where he is preparing to watch this weekend's big NASCAR race.

"He was very aggressive about doing his duty there. He never complained
about it. ... He was very dedicated to what he was doing in the Guard. He
showed up on time and he left at the end of the day."

Calhoun, whose name was supplied to the AP by a Republican close to Bush, is
the first member of the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group to recall Bush
distinctly at the Alabama base in the period of 1972-1973. He was the unit's
flight safety officer.

The 69-year-old president of an Atlanta insulation company said Bush showed
up for work at Dannelly Air National Guard Base for drills on at least six
occasions. Bush and Calhoun had both been trained as fighter pilots, and
Calhoun said the two would swap "war stories" and even eat lunch together on
base.

Calhoun is named in 187th unit rosters obtained by the AP as serving under
the deputy commander of operations plans. Bush was in Alabama on non-flying
status.

"He sat in my office most of the time - he would read," Calhoun said. "He
had your training manuals from your aircraft he was flying. He'd study those
some. He'd read safety magazines, which is a common thing for pilots."

Democrats have asked for proof that Bush, then a 1st lieutenant with the
Texas Air National Guard, turned up for duty in Alabama, where Bush had
asked to be assigned while he worked on the U.S. Senate campaign of family
friend Winton "Red" Blount.

Pay and medical records released by the White House this week failed to
quash allegations that Bush shirked his Guard responsibilities. (Related
story: Bush's driving records disclosed)

The 187th's former commander, retired Brig. Gen. William Turnipseed, has
said he doesn't remember Bush ever turning up on base, and more than a dozen
members of the 800-person unit, including its commander, told The Associated
Press this week they have no recollection of Bush. Critics have made much of
the fact that the White House has failed to produce anyone who could
remember seeing Bush there.

Calhoun said he contacted Texas GOP leaders with his story in 2000 when the
issue was raised just before the November general election.

"I got on the phone and got information and called Austin, Texas, and talked
to the Republican campaign. They said I was talking to the campaign
manager," he said. "I told him my story and said I would be glad to provide
information to that effect. At that time they said ... The story is not
true. And we don't think it's got enough weight to stay out as a story.' And
they said, 'But if it does we'll call you back.' And I never heard from them
again."

Last week as the issue raged again, Calhoun sent an e-mail to the White
House offering to tell his story. "I got a response back, one of those
automatic responses," he said. It wasn't until his wife contacted Georgia
GOP officials that Calhoun's name surfaced.

White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Friday that the White House
was not making any effort to try to locate people who might have served with
Bush. He also accused reporters of trying to raise new lines of questioning,
beyond whether Bush served in Alabama.

Critics have suggested that Bush used his family connections to get the safe
Guard assignment ahead of thousands of others. But Calhoun said Bush never
mentioned his congressman father while they sat together at Dannelly.

"I knew he was working in the senatorial campaign, and I asked him if he was
going to be a politician," said Calhoun, who is a staunch Republican. "And
he said, 'I don't know. Probably.'"

Calhoun has not made any donations to Bush this election season or during
the 2000 season, according to campaign finance records.



Steven P. McNicoll June 10th 04 03:45 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Trudeau donated the money to the USO.


Did Trudeau make the donation in the name of John Calhoun or did he renege
on his promise?



Steven P. McNicoll June 10th 04 03:56 PM


"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

Even if he wasn't, that doesn't mean that he threw away the phone
numbers of all those people he had influence with when he was in office.


Still no evidence that any influence was used though.



Steven P. McNicoll June 10th 04 03:56 PM


"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Bush was released after 5 years, 4 months and five days of a six year
commitment.

If he didn't get special favor, how did that happen?


It happens all the time.

I was in a TFW in Europe that was transitioning from the F-4D to the F-111F.
As I recall, those that had less than a year to go on their tour were not
going to be retrained on a new weapon system. If they had more than six
months left in the Air Force they would be reassigned to a stateside unit,
if they had less than six months left they were discharged. I'd guess those
that were released early numbered in the hundreds.

I take it you never served in the military.




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