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-   -   Non-precision approach without a published MAP? (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=39857)

Dave S July 30th 06 11:31 PM

Non-precision approach without a published MAP?
 
Andrew Sarangan wrote:


It also occurs BEYOND the departure end of the runway...




So what? I would consider a MAP that begins before the runway to be an
exception rather than the rule.


I agree..

But what I am referring to were MAPs that are reached after you have
already passed the runway completely (approach AND departure end), and
are leaving the airport boundary, which is portrayed in the approach in
question. I'm sure there are more than a few.. I just haven't seen many
like that.

Thanks,
Dave

Dave Butler[_1_] July 31st 06 01:49 PM

Non-precision approach without a published MAP?
 
Peter R. wrote:

The airport is only served by one instrument approach, a VOR/GPS approach,
linked he

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../06847VG18.PDF


I found it interesting that BOPIJ is a CNF (computer navigation fix) but appears
on this chart to be identified by VOR/DME.

Sam Spade July 31st 06 02:19 PM

Non-precision approach without a published MAP?
 
Dave Butler wrote:
Peter R. wrote:

The airport is only served by one instrument approach, a VOR/GPS
approach,
linked he

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../06847VG18.PDF



I found it interesting that BOPIJ is a CNF (computer navigation fix) but
appears on this chart to be identified by VOR/DME.


Looks like a NACO error.

Sam Spade July 31st 06 02:22 PM

Non-precision approach without a published MAP?
 
Dave S wrote:

Andrew Sarangan wrote:


It also occurs BEYOND the departure end of the runway...





So what? I would consider a MAP that begins before the runway to be an
exception rather than the rule.



I agree..

But what I am referring to were MAPs that are reached after you have
already passed the runway completely (approach AND departure end), and
are leaving the airport boundary, which is portrayed in the approach in
question. I'm sure there are more than a few.. I just haven't seen many
like that.

Thanks,
Dave


That's why it's called a non-precision approach. You are suppose to
understand on on-airport-faciliy's IAP limitations and be guided
accordingly.

These are antiques now.

Sam Spade July 31st 06 02:51 PM

Non-precision approach without a published MAP?
 
Dave Butler wrote:
Peter R. wrote:

The airport is only served by one instrument approach, a VOR/GPS
approach,
linked he

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../06847VG18.PDF



I found it interesting that BOPIJ is a CNF (computer navigation fix) but
appears on this chart to be identified by VOR/DME.


Disregard my previous response.

Note the procedure has optional DME minimums. A DME stepdown fix is
permitted in an On-Airport, No-FAF, VOR IAP. Since the DME stepdown fix
is at 4 miles it became cooincident with the sensor FAF (CNF) when GPS
overlay was authorized.

Dave S August 1st 06 02:24 AM

Non-precision approach without a published MAP?
 

That's why it's called a non-precision approach. You are suppose to
understand on on-airport-faciliy's IAP limitations and be guided
accordingly.

These are antiques now.


No... it's called a non precision approach if it lacks vertical guidance
component in the form of a glideslope. And of course if it has a
glideslope, its going to have a localizer or localizer type lateral
guidance to the runway end..

what I thought was unique and remarkable about this approach, which
nobody seems to notice what I was actually referring to.. was that the
MAP wasnt before the runway, or over the threshhold, or over
midfield.... but clean past the whole stinkin airport. Hadn't seen that
before.. til now. Call me green.. I dont care..

I guess that isn't that remarkable of a thing to all the wise old men
out there..

Roy Smith August 1st 06 02:31 AM

Non-precision approach without a published MAP?
 
Dave S wrote:

what I thought was unique and remarkable about this approach, which
nobody seems to notice what I was actually referring to.. was that the
MAP wasnt before the runway, or over the threshhold, or over
midfield.... but clean past the whole stinkin airport.


The primary thing an approach does is make sure you don't hit anything.
After that, it's good if it also gets you to a runway.

John R. Copeland August 1st 06 03:11 AM

Non-precision approach without a published MAP?
 
"Roy Smith" wrote in message ...
Dave S wrote:

what I thought was unique and remarkable about this approach, which
nobody seems to notice what I was actually referring to.. was that the
MAP wasnt before the runway, or over the threshhold, or over
midfield.... but clean past the whole stinkin airport.


The primary thing an approach does is make sure you don't hit anything.
After that, it's good if it also gets you to a runway.


Or at least *close enough* to the runway that you can see it for landing.
I guess that'd be within about a mile for the approach we're talking about.


Peter R. August 1st 06 03:28 AM

Non-precision approach without a published MAP?
 
Dave S wrote:

what I thought was unique and remarkable about this approach, which
nobody seems to notice what I was actually referring to.. was that the
MAP wasnt before the runway, or over the threshhold, or over
midfield.... but clean past the whole stinkin airport. Hadn't seen that
before.. til now.


Keep in mind that what is important about the MAP is that it is not
necessarily the point at which a safe descent to the runway will occur, or
even the point at which the airport will be spotted, but rather that it is
the point at which the pilot *begins* flying the missed approach.

This is especially important on approaches such as Starke County (the
approach linked and discussed in this thread) where it is imperative that
the pilot continue along the final approach to the MAP before beginning the
missed instructions.

Terrain or man-made obstacles might dictate flying the final approach
course past the airport before the missed can begin, or perhaps in this
approach's case it was simply that the VOR was close enough to the airport
to conveniently designate the missed approach point (although given that
this VOR is co-located with a DME that could have been used to designate a
closer MAP, maybe not)?

Call me green.. I dont care..


I just rolled 1,000 hours with plenty of actual IMC and I still consider
myself green. :)

--
Peter

Sam Spade August 1st 06 08:07 AM

Non-precision approach without a published MAP?
 
Dave S wrote:

That's why it's called a non-precision approach. You are suppose to
understand on on-airport-faciliy's IAP limitations and be guided
accordingly.

These are antiques now.



No... it's called a non precision approach if it lacks vertical guidance
component in the form of a glideslope. And of course if it has a
glideslope, its going to have a localizer or localizer type lateral
guidance to the runway end..


Some non-precision IAPs have more non-precision than others.

what I thought was unique and remarkable about this approach, which
nobody seems to notice what I was actually referring to.. was that the
MAP wasnt before the runway, or over the threshhold, or over
midfield.... but clean past the whole stinkin airport. Hadn't seen that
before.. til now. Call me green.. I dont care..

I guess that isn't that remarkable of a thing to all the wise old men
out there..


It is a matter of training, not experience.


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