GENERALLY SPEAKING...In 2v1 "the hard way", I've always felt that giving up
energy for the first shot is a good move since it essentially makes the
fight a "2v2." One can certainly be stupid about what kind of angles you're
giving the "free" fighter (as well as late entering wild cards), but how
many times have we also seen folks "preserving their Ps" so well that they
do little but execute bogey-gathering turns? Since I'm already at a gross
disadvantage, if I'm given a shred of an opportunity to dictate the fight,
I'm gonna do it by going offensive first. If I get even slightly offensive
and the free fighter makes any kind of mistake (for example, "extending"
with his wingman defensive) it is now two 1v1s that I can fight
sequentially. There are plenty of scenario driven "yeah, buts" and "what
ifs," but its nice to be able to "point" when you need/want to.

I didn't read each of the comments, but hasn't anybody talked about AA-11s,
Python 4/5s and AIM-9x with HMCS or similar capabilities? Its now less
about pointing the jet than it is the HMCS and the weapon.

"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" wrote in message
...
On 6/19/04 7:15 AM, in article , "John
Carrier" wrote:

Been there and done that as well, albeit in an A-4. It's the sticky
little
problem of the wild card that gets thrown into that otherwise
controllable
mix. Particularly sticky, even after a 2 kill result, because you must
leave the hostile arena (perhaps 50-100 NM from feet wet) starting with
150
knots and a wee bit less fuel than you'd probably like.

Perhaps we've entered an era in which air supremacy is a given. In
every
encounter we've experienced since Vietnam, we've so thoroughly owned the
arena that we could do our thing with impunity with regard to the
airborne
threat (of course ground fire, etc can still rear its ugly head ...
particularly if you get low). In sanitized airspace, your 1v2 may well
be
guaranteed to remain a 1v2 and your egress can be a fuel efficient
profile.

You have a good point. For instance, I often find myself arguing that
multi-plane engagement training (4v4 minimum... Which seem to be getting
rarer and rarer) are still necessary, but since we've seen such air
supremacy, I fear that dwindling budgets will further limit multi-plane
4vX
events in the future.

Or not. Current training often reflects the preferred methods of
engagement: AMRAAM at F-pole, break to notch the bogey's system, and
then
leave without a merge. That's good. But it's sometimes (often?) BFM
oriented: call all the forward quarter shots, then continue to the
merge
and "fight's on!" Maybe not so good. How many of your kick ass, take
names
engagements ended with a 3rd bogey entering the arena at an inopportune
time? How many had a bugout that lasted more than 30 seconds?

That situation--essentially a 3v1 with a head start on the first two--has
only happened once, and the third guy shot me. But had I not taken the
energy excursions to shoot his brethren, I'd have been fighting all three
of
them with no kills whatsoever.

I'm not arguing against the relative merits of your aircraft or your
consummate skill. But I am suggesting that more often than not, our
"training" leaves out some of the important stuff. IIRC the last guys
to
enjoy similar success (3 kills in one engagement) had to ride the helo
back
to the ship, and were damn lucky to do so.

I have little "consummate skill," and we both know that the Hornet has its
limitations--a fact I freely acknowledge. I agree that our training
sometimes gets too artificial (and as training rules tighten down it gets
even more limited as time goes on). I know you're not Hornet bashing or
Hornet pilot bashing.

The art is: When do you trade energy for nose position? You wait for a
moment in the fight (if ever) when you're willing to trade your airspeed
for
angles, pull, and shoot. Then gain it back by locking both arms. This is
not cosmic. No pilot goes to the merge thinking that he should
immediately
slow down.

Your points are good ones--it's not often that we bug for more than 30
seconds... or even supersonic (because of range limits), and that mindset
needs to be refreshed every now and then.

--Woody