Michael wrote:
Dave Butler wrote

True but disingenuous. You are highly unlikely to get favorable
terms.

I don't take kindly to being called disingenuous. Let's elevate this discussion
above name-calling, OK? You've made a lot of valuable contributions to this
group, Michael, but calling people disingenuous because they don't agree with
your position is not a positive contribution.


Point taken, and I apologize. However, I still don't agree that it is

Apology accepted.

possible for the owner of a single airplane to get favorable leaseback
terms from an FBO, especially a first time buyer. The only people
I've ever heard claim otherwise were those who benefit by leasebacks
and those who haven't tried but believe it can be done. If you have a
specific counterexample, I would love to hear about it.

OK, my successful counterexample is from my own experience, which I have
described previously in this forum (google is your friend), but I'll briefly
describe it again. See below. My lease was not to an FBO, so I guess you can
argue it is not a "leaseback", but just a "lease". In common aviation usage,
this sort of lease is commonly referred to as a leaseback.



I stand by my position. You're not likely to get favorable terms if you just
accept the terms that are offered. You're free to negotiate any terms you like.
If you don't get what you want, you are free to walk away.


Doesn't quite work that way. Nobody will sign a leaseback contract
with you for an airplane you don't own. Once you've invested the
capital, you are indeed free to walk away - but you've already
invested the capital.

I agree. I was assuming you already owned the aircraft, which is not the OP's
situation.



The reality is that there isn't much (if any) money to be made in
airplane rental.

Quite true.


Then what makes you believe a leaseback can work? If there isn't
money to be made there, then how are you to make money there?

You said not much, not none. I agree the margins are thin and the risks are high.



Untrue. The only experience in aircraft ownership you will gain is
the experience of writing checks.

...and this is based on your experience of -no- leasebacks?


No, it's based on the experience of my friends who tried.
It's like that root canal thing.

And what is your experience with leasebacks?

I owned a PA28-180, leased to a flying club, for -I don't know- several years,
long enough to go through 2 engine overhauls on it. I started out with a
partner, ended up as sole owner. The aircraft was used by a flying club for
instrument training and whatever club member do with airplanes, no primary
training. I used 350 hours / year as a planning number.

After sale of the aircraft and recapture of the depreciation, I made a small
amount. You could argue that the amount I made was not worth the amount of risk
in the investment, and I'll certainly stipulate that I was lucky. There were
intangible benefits that made it worth it to me. I did -none- of my own
maintenance, so by your criteria, I guess I learned nothing from the exercise. I
don't feel that way about it, though.

Incidentally, this same aircraft was sold to another club member, who also
leased it to the same club. Not sure, but I think her lease experience was not
as positive as mine. It's now been sold to yet another club member, who
continues to lease it to the club. The current owner is a friend and coworker
and comments positively about the status of the business, but I haven't examined
his books.

Dave