On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 10:19:39 -0400, Todd Pattist
wrote in Message-Id:
:

Larry Dighera wrote:

Were you sole manipulator of the controls and
rated in the aircraft? If so, it's loggable 61.51(e) PIC
time.

Of course, that's not true for student pilots.

Well, technically, it *is* true for student pilots.

I would define a Student Pilot as one who holds a Student Pilot
Certificate ONLY, no Airmans Certificate. (I'll use that definition
throughout my reply.)

A student who holds _only_ a Student Pilot Certificate can NOT log PIC
time in actual instrument conditions, because FAR 61.65(e)(4)(i)*
requires him to be the sole occupant of the aircraft to log PIC time.
Can we can agree, that a competent CFI(I) would not permit a student
pilot to solo in IMC (nor under a vision restricting device)?

If a Student Pilot found himself in IMC while soloing, he might be
able to log that actual instrument time as PIC time, but in all
likelihood, posthumously. :-)

You missed the "rated in the aircraft" part of my statement.

Not really.

I wasn't disagreeing with your statement. I was just attempting to
provide additional, complementary information.

It's true, because I said only pilots who were *both* "sole
manipulator of the controls" *and* "rated in the aircraft"
could log the time, and no student is "rated in the
aircraft."

When you state, "it's true," the antecedent of your use of the pronoun
'it' is ambagious.

If you are referring to Student Pilots logging IMC PIC time, that is
prohibited by regulation FAR 61.65(e)(4)(i), because they can't solo
in IMC. I am not aware of a requirement for Student Pilots to be
"rated in the aircraft" to be permitted to log PIC time. Indeed,
Student Pilots' solo time is permitted by regulation to be logged as
PIC time.

If you're referring to pilots who hold an _Airmans_ _Certificate_ and
are receiving instrument instruction from a CFII, indeed FAR
61.65(e)(1)(i) does permit logging PIC time when the pilot is sole
manipulator of the controls of the aircraft in which he is rated.
However, such a pilot is not a Student Pilot.

It's not entirely clear from Marty Ross' article whether he held a
Student Pilot Certificate or Airmans Certificate during the time he
accrued the actual instrument experience to which he was referring.
Here's what he said:

I recently realized that I should not have included any "actual"
(IMC) time recorded in my logbook as PIC time while I was an
instrument student.

While an Instrument Student training for an IFR rating must hold an
Airmans Certificate, a Student Pilot does receive instrument
instruction, but he can not log it as PIC time (unless he is solo).

It appears, that implicit in your reply (indicating that instrument
PIC time is loggable) was the presumption that the student held an
Airmans Certificate (otherwise he wouldn't be rated in the aircraft).
I chose to mention the regulations effective for students who do not
hold an Airmans Certificate. You seem to have erroneously interpreted
that as disagreeing with your statement, and failed to note that
Student Pilots need not be "rated in the aircraft" to log PIC time.

Misunderstandings are common when ambiguities are not addressed, and
articles are not thoroughly read and comprehended. I know it happens
to me.

(Of course, this entire discussion is limited to Aircraft Category
operations, and ignores Part 141 training.)


* For convenient reference, here's a link to the regulations:
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...e?OpenFrameSet
--

Irrational beliefs ultimately lead to irrational acts.
-- Larry Dighera,