"Maule Driver" wrote in message
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I'm sure it is frustrating. But the answer to the original question
remained murky to me. So I too went back to the FARs and the
AIM. My understanding now is that you are correct Dennis. The
pilot was legal but the sequence of communciations from ATC was confusing.
And getting to that conclusion was not straightforward.


The answer to the original question, "when does the 'remain clear of class C
airspace' instruction end?", is clear, it ends when overridden by another
instruction.



ATC had issued a "remain clear" before departure. And the implication
in the original post was the the tail number was used since a squawk code
was issued before the departure.

Steven stated, "Once told to memain clear you must remain clear until the
controller issues an instruction that permits entry." As a practical
matter, I would agree. But Dennis goes on to state, "...he has
established radio contact which is 'the clearance to enter'...So, I
asked both (FAA types), wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now
'cleared to enter the C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that
there is no confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is
establishing radio contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out
in the AIM." I say b*** s*** to the FAA types.


Radio contact was established when the aircraft was still on the ground, at
the same time the controller said "after departure remain clear of the class
C airspace". Establishing radio contact without an instruction to remain
clear of Class C airspace permits entry, establishing radio contact with an
instruction to remain clear does not permit entry.



I would counter that the AIM is not regulatory and that an ATC
communication using your tail number is not always a clearance
to enter. An example would be where per the AIM, ATC says
"1234Alpha, remain outside Class Charlie and standby". Then
follows with a "1234 Alpha traffic 11 oclock 3,000feet". I would
maintain that I've been told to remain clear and that
the subsequent tail number identified communication *does not*
clear me to enter. I would still be waiting for an instruction that
permits entry.


Exactly.



So, if a pilot has been told to remain clear and identified by tail
number, then he should remain clear until given an instruction that
permits entry. A vector would do the trick. Legally, a 'radar
contact and altimeter' would probably keep you out of jail but
would be a bit stupid.


Radar contact and an altimeter does not override an instruction to remain
clear of Class C airspace and neither is an entry requirement.



But in this case, the key is that the "remain clear" was issued before
departure and therefore doesn't play a part in subsequent
communications after departure.


You've got it backwards. Before departure the aircraft is on the ground
outside of Class C airspace. "Remain clear" can only apply after departure.



There's no requirement to establish communications from an
underlying airport before departure so any radio contact established
before departure shouldn't be considered qualification to enter the
Class C.


Why not? There's no requirement to establish radio contact 40 miles from
the Class C boundary but if one does so then one is permitted entry.



By the same token, the admonishment to remain clear of Class C
issued before departure is meaningless once one has departed.


Actually, it is meaningful only after departure. It isn't meaningful before
departure because it isn't possible to enter the Class C airspace without
departing.



If one establishes radio contact
after departure, then one is cleared to enter just as the original
poster did.


Not if one has been instructed to remain clear.



It's clear to me now but it certainly isn't clear "according to the most
basic of rules".


It doesn't sound like it's clear to you yet.