"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
nk.net...

To enter class C airspace, the FARs say that you have to establish
two-way radio communication.


Yes, but the FARs also say that except in an emergency, no person may
operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air
traffic control is exercised. Class C airspace is an area in which air
traffic control is exercised, so a pilot that has established two-way radio
communications and been instructed to remain clear of Class C airspace must
remain outside until further advised.



The AIM provides a few examples which indicate that no
explicit clearance is required. I agree that ATC can establish
communication but instruct the pilot to remain clear. It is what
can happen next that we have been debating.

From the FARs, the AIM , and my experiences, the
acknowledgement of a particular plane by ATC establishes
two-way radio communication and is sufficient for the plane to
enter the class C - even after the issuance of a "remain clear."


The FARs and AIM indicate just the opposite, and you don't have any
experience to the contrary, you just misinterpreted the situation.



It does seem to be your opinion and it is far from a simple fact.


Actually, it is an indisputable fact. It can be no other way.



There is no language in the FARs or AIM that clearly supports either of
our opinions.


The FARs and AIM support what I've been saying and indicate that you're
wrong.



There is no text that says anything about what must happen after a
"remain clear" has been issued for class C.


What text says what must happen after any ATC instruction is issued?



There is no such thing as an instruction to permit entry into class C.


Why? Because all ATC instructions are listed in the AIM and there is no
such instruction mentioned?



The FARs say that two-way radio communication is sufficient. The AIM
says that two-way radio communication is sufficient. Where does it say
otherwise?


In FAR 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.

b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an
ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.


By the way, you're contradicting yourself. Earlier you wrote; "I agree that
ATC can establish communication but instruct the pilot to remain clear."
Now you're saying that ATC cannot instruct an aircraft that has established
radio communications to remain outside Class C airspace.



If the controller intended for the pilot to remain clear that he would
have simply ignored the pilot's radio calls or would have repeated
the "remain clear."


If the controller didn't intend for the pilot to remain clear he wouldn't
have told him "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". Why
would the controller need to repeat that instruction?



For the scenario described by the original poster, the departure
controller instructed him to remain clear of the class C. Once in
the air, the radio exchange that occured established two-way
radio communication and was sufficient for him to enter the class C.


Wrong. Two-way radio communications were established just once, when the
aircraft was on the ground, at the same time the instruction to remain
outside Class C airspace was issued. Communications are not established
with every communications exchange, just the first one.



Or, that I'm right.


The AIM, FARs, FAA Order 7110.65, and simple logic indicate you're wrong.





I'll agree with that. I'm sure some day that a class C or D controller
will say something like "cleared to enter ..." but it is not necessary and
I
don't need to hear it whether or not I have been told to remain clear.


But once you've been told to remain outside Class C airspace you do have to
hear something that indicates you can enter.



There is no documentation to support your point of view either.


All pertinent documentation supports my position.



My position is consistent with the documentation that does exist.


Your position is contrary to all pertinent documentation, you simply do not
understand the documentation.



It is consistent with my experiences at class C and D airports.


Impossible, as you cannot experience that which does not occur.



It is not completely illogical.


Actually, it is. You're just not thinking logically.



I would suggest that having this ambiguity about a clearance to
enter the class C/D in the FARs in the first place is illogical.


What ambiguity?



You have explained it very simply and I do think that I understand
what you are saying. Let me summarize to be sure. You claim that
once a controller has issued a "remain clear" for a class C or D
airspace that an explicit "cleared into the class C or D airpspace" or
some instruction that requires entry is necessary before the pilot
should enter.


"Cleared" would be incorrect, but otherwise that's a reasonable facsimile.



I disagree with you.


Right. It's like I'm saying "two plus two equals four", and you're saying
"I disagree, in my experience two plus two equals five".



I am trying to map what you are saying to the
documentation and to my experiences. They don't seem to agree.


That's because you've misinterpreted the documents and drawn incorrect
conclusions from your experience.