Howdy!
In article .net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Michael Houghton" wrote in message
...
Where, in "N1234, radar contact." is there a "remain clear" instruction?
We've been over this already. The instruction to remain clear was in the
first exchange.
OK. And the second exchange fully satisfied the terms as laid out in
7110.65. The controller responded to a radio call using the caller's
aircraft number. That plainly, according to the direction given controllers,
permitted entry into the Class C airspace.
Why does the general "follow all instructions" FAR clause supercede a more
specific clause as pertains to entering Class C airspace?
Conversation:
N1234: Podunk, I want to go through your Class C.
Podunk: N1234, remain clear.
(N1234 toodles along remaining clear)
Podunk: N1234, what are you intentions?
(N1234 heads into Class C)
Now, I'm not specifying how much time elapses between the two
transmissions from Podunk. I'll posit that N1234 did not land
during that time.
I think this is really close to the original poster's scenario.
Were you trying to make a point?
Yes. One which you seem incapable of grasping, given the manifold
ways it has been presented to you.
Not close. I say there is no way to *permit* an aircraft to enter once
told to remain clear, under your interpretation.
Why not?
If specific phrasing were needed, one would expect to find it
addressed in the controllers handbook.
Why would one expect that? Are all possible phrases which can be used in
ATC addressed in the controller's handbook?
One finds phraseology sections throughout the controller's handbook. They
offer specimen phrasing. Not having read it completely, it may, at times,
prescribe specific phraseology for certain tasks.
In the case of explictly *permitting* entry into class C, there is no
phraseology offered that contains an instruction to enter. There is an
example of how to instruct an aircraft to remain clear. You assert that
certain conditions require affirmative instruction to enter. Where, in
the controller's handbook, is that claim supported?
I say that the instruction to "remain clear" in reference to Class C (and
probably Class D as well) airspace is voided by subsequent
transmissions.
I don't have a specific reference for that, but you have no provided a
reference that specifically supports your contention.
Your contention is illogical, I have provided specific references from the
FARs, the AIM, and FAAO 7110.65.
No, you have not provided citations. I can amend my assertion based on
actually looking at the controller's handbook. The "remain clear" instruction
has no force after a subsequent call from the aircraft and response from the
controller that includes the calling aircraft's tail number. That's a plain
reading of 7-8-4 (if I remember the reference correctly). That paragraph
does clearly state that the controller must specifically instruct the caller
to remain clear, if they use the tail number in their response.
Perzackly. I'm still waiting for you.
Are you playing some kind of game here or are you really that stupid?
You might ask yourself that same question. I'm simply calling you on your
fallacious claims.
You have not offered citations that support your specific claim. You
refer vaguely to documents, but you don't cite chapter and verse that
support you.
There is no chapter and verse that says an aircraft instructed to remain
clear of Class C airspace must remain clear until it receives an instruction
that permits it to enter Class C airspace. That is understood simply
because it can be no other way.
You keep saying that. Repetition does not make it so. Reread the
controller's handbook carefully, paying close attention to how one
handles Class C airspace.
In fact, some of the materials you reference rebut you.
Ya think? What materials, specifically, rebut me. Cite chapter and verse.
---begin citation
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0708.html#7-8-4
FAA Order 7110.65P
Chapter 7. Visual
Section 8. Class C Service- Terminal
7-8-4. ESTABLISHING TWO-WAY COMMUNICATIONS
(1) Class C service requires pilots to establish two-way radio
communications before entering Class C airspace.
(2) If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(a/c call sign)
standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot can
enter Class C airspace.
(3) If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision
of Class C services, inform the pilot to remain outside Class C
airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.
PHRASEOLOGY-
(A/c call sign) REMAIN OUTSIDE CHARLIE AIRSPACE AND STANDBY.
---end citation
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0708.html#7-8-4
I've taken the liberty of numbering the sentences for clear reference.
Let's consider what it says.
Sentence (1) recites the requirement given in FAR 91.130(c)1 of the
precondition for entry.
Sentence (2) gives a condition ("if the controll responds...with...")
and a consequence of satisfying that condition (communication established
(definition) and entry authorized (action permitted)).
Sentence (3) provides a way for the controller to tell the pilot to
keep out.
Finally, the PHRASEOLOGY annotation "denotes the prescribed words and/or
phrases to be used in communications." (7110.65P 1-2-5.g)
I've made the mistake of assuming that you were a reasoning and
reasonable person, but you persist in asserting conditions that are
clearly not supported by the document that "... prescribes air traffic
control procedures and phraseology for use by personnel providing air
traffic control services. Controllers are required to be familiar with
the provisions of this order that pertain to their operational
responsibilities..." (7110.65P Foreward [over signatore of David B.
Johnson, Director of Air Traffic])
If I've missed the section that says otherwise, please cite it specifically.
I don't claim to be omniscient.
[snip semantic null non-response]
yours,
Michael
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