"Tim Ward" wrote in message ...
"pacplyer" wrote in message
om...
snippage
Pac sez:
I like this idea. A 747-200F can carry 250,000 lbs of fuel and 250,000
of cargo at the same time. But at that weight 820,000 lbs it could
only make ~FL280. It would have to leave most of the gas behind: no
sweat there. Since it burns a rough average of 25,000 lbs an hour a
t/o fuel load could be as low as around ~50,000lbs of fuel for
twenty-nine minutes of ascent plus return and skinny reserves so, you
would have good rate of climb to the service ceiling of FL450 (45,000
ft.) The combined tow weight of OrbitOne plus fuel and Colonauts
could be easily be greater than 200,000 lbs if all your tow apparatus
could handle it. So figure a total Mojave t/o weight of ~650,000lbs.
These numbers are off the top of my head, I could look up the exact
ones if you want me to. Don't know if this would be cheaper than a
Vandenberg launch, but Rutan would control it all, and stay away from
gov turd interference. **** I like it. You should email this idea to
Scaled Composites Tim. Bet you a nickle Burt is already considering
it. Evergreen in Oregon is already using 74's for fire fighting.
This might be the next great role for that old queen of the sky.

pacplyer



Whoops, I forgot the weight of the cable and winches! 100,000 lbs.
So figure t/o weight at ~750,000lbs (including glider/orbiter weight.)
No sweat for t/o but now getting to FL450 is going to be tough. We
may need some JATO bottles to get to FL450 with the -200 tow plane.
The gross on the -400 is 875,000lbs, may have to take that old KLM
bird sitting out in the desert instead.

I think the mission might turn out to be longer than a thirty minute climb.
It's going to take some time to pay out all that tow line -- payout winch
launches are slower than auto tows, and much slower than regular winch
launches.
OTOH, the tow plane doesn't have to _lift_ the spacecraft -- it just has to
overcome the drag.

Yeah, figure an hour climb with all the drag. I think we're back in
business with the 747-200F though. The NASA 747-100 is an old
American Airlines bird with P&W JT9D-7F engines IIRC (about 50,000 lbs
thrust ea. engine and it pulls the drag of the space shuttle orbiter
O.K.) vs. 67,000 ea. engine for our 747-200 freighter with dash 7Q
engines.) So we're good to go again adding another 20,000lbs for the
new normal 1 hr clmb total and return plus reserves. If you don't
count the weight of the lifting body/orbiter we're back to a t/o
weight of 570,000lbs. That's a rocket ship in 747 land. We just need
to figure out the drag of your Kevlar/Carbon Fiber tow lanyard. Maybe
you can weave it like a kite with horizontal stablizers flaps so that
it too produces lift as you pay it out? Naw dumb idea, too draggy,
forget that part.

In fact, once the spacecraft is in high tow, it should be pulling up and
back (or up and out, in the slingshot portion of the flight). If things are
going right, in high tow, the spacecraft is always lifting the weight of the
tow cable that's extended, so as the tow line gets longer, the payload that
the 747's wing is lifting gets smaller. At peak altitude, the 747's wing
should only "see" the remaining fuel as a load. If the tow cable is pulling
down, then you haven't got enough tension in the tow cable. If you can't
increase the tension, then you've got too much line out.
But I expect the drag is going to be considerably higher than a stock 747.
20 km of cable an inch or so in diameter is going to be quite a bit of drag,
even at altitude. Thus my suggestion that some more engines (and higher
fuel burn) might be in order. Or do you need to throttle back a 747 at
altitude to keep the speed in limits?

As Han Solo freighter Captain said to Ben Obiwan Kenobi: "She's fast
enough for you old man."

Empty, we flew the -249 model to FL430 one day, kept it at MCT power
and had to pull it back to keep it from busting through the MMO limit
of .92 Mach. I saw .94 on the Capt's Mach at one point. The mach
tuck was tremendous over .88. The a/p mach cruise trim motor took off
like a horse. Think about that for a minute. An airplane that big
that will cruise at .92 mach. It's now the fastest transport in the
world. That's why I laughed when the (now sacked) Boeing CEO Condit
introduced the Sonic Cruiser. What a dull machine. It wasn't really
any faster than a stock 747 (abeit empty at MCT.) No you want a 747
for this. C5's can't go as fast or as high and can't approach the
load. The AN-124 has more power but again is slow and draggy.


I'm sure that after the publicity of the SpaceShip1 flight, Rutan is getting
all the hare-brained ideas that he can use via email, snail mail and
telephone. As I mentioned in the first post, Kelly Aerospace is working on
a tow-to-altitude and launch scheme, so some of the idea isn't new, anyway.

Don't discount this idea. Rutan picked up a lot of his crew from guys
who mailed in hair-brained ideas. John Ronz (sp?) corrected Burt on
his selection of laminar airfoils via mail and became a fixture at
Scaled. If you pointed something like this out at Nasa as a junior
engineer they'd probably laugh in your face and stick you on designing
space toilets for daring to upstage the gov turds who are entrenched
there. In the wake of SS1 the NASA Administrator O'Keef or something,
is completely reorganizing the agency to foster the kind of ingenuity
that SS1 has. Watched it on the NASA channel a couple of days ago.
They are reeling from the SS1 success. But moving desks around is not
going to make Nasa like Scaled IMHO.


I wonder about the flight dynamics of a 20 km tether. I don't think anyone
has modeled anything like that. Why would they?

But a reusable 747 "first stage" that could get the "second stage" to
100,000 feet, albeit only at a little below Mach 1 (I think the drag would
go WAY up if the tether went supersonic!) is certainly cool to think about.

Tim Ward

It's more than cool Tim. It's the way to open a commercial spaceport
with private ships bound for the New World. I think you're on to
something here. We should ask Dave Hyde or somebody (does he do aero
equations?) to get his buddies to model the drag on a 20km tether. If
the data is good, I know an engineer at scaled that will look at it.

Cheers,

pacplyer