No. The examiner is not a "passenger" by FAA definitions. The FAA
decided
this so as to prevent any confusion about whether a student pilot may
carry
passengers or not. But even if the examiner were a passenger, so what?
The
student is not allowed to carry passengers prior to the checkride.

Only thing I can think of is carring passangers and lower weather min
for
some!

Well, then you're either not thinking very hard, or you're a relatively
low-time pilot (or a high-time pilot with the same hours thousands of
times). Flying airplanes can involve a wide variety of things that are
never touched on during primary training.

Yea, I am thinking but not going to dwell over it and I am a low time pilot
just under 200 hours


As a student I was doing solo SVFR flights in the pattern.

FAR 61.89 "(a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an
aircraft6) With a flight or surface visibility of less than 3 statute
miles during daylight hours or 5 statute miles at night". Okay, so you
managed to stay out of some clouds as a student...so what? You didn't
*really* fly minimum "special VFR" weather as a student.

So if the ceilings are at 800' broken 900' overcast that's not VFR weather
and if you wanted to do pattern work or depart to ware weather is VFR you
could request a SVFR upon instructor approval and any instructor in their
right mind would want you to prove you can handel an emergancy at low
altitudes.


If they are
renting they may not be able to do a few things like soft field unless
approved by the FBO or Club.

Soft field landings should be covered during primary training.

Most FBO's will not let you do soft field landings for insurance reasons and
most examiners have you simulate softfield.


However, things like:

-- landing on a beach

Only 1 place in the US I believe that's allowed Copalis, Wa S16 but should
be covered in ground and in softfield operations.

-- flying through a mountain pass

My instructor covered that with me because I am in a mountainous area

-- landing at LAX

Class B Airspace usualy coverd during ground school.

-- VFR over the top of a solid cloud layer

Here in the northwest that is common occorance

-- maximum gross operations

Covered during training to far FWD and AFT CG limits also and if you train
in a 150 that is usualy coverd every day my instructor said Pushing Gross.

-- not to mention, flying minimum 1 mile visibility, clear of clouds

Now that was not covered because I never plan on flying in them conditions
and hope I never have to unless I am IFR and I haven't found an instructor
to suite my needs I have found out most instructors just want to teach you
the minimum myself I need more than the minimum out of an instructor.

Special VFR

Coverd becuse of the climate we are in.


just to name a handful are not covered during primary training, and yet a
brand new Private Pilot is permitted to do any of those.

I have not meet one person that has done the primary training in the min
time usually 20 to 40 hours more then required.

So what? The fact that training already takes longer than the minimum is
not an argument for adding even MORE things to the training.

Toss time out the window.... I think that a good instructor will cover all
of the PTS Plus! some real world flying especially in for the local
conditions that the student will be flying in and out of. I know an
instructor cannot cover every thing but the major things should be covered
and coverd well like night flying.


Humm?????? Like with all things of skill, But they should be at a skill
level that meets or exceeds PTS prior to check ride.

Again, there is a wide variety of things that are simply not covered
during
primary training, nor are they part of the Private Pilot Practical Test
Standards. How in the world is a pilot supposed to fly "at a skill level
that meets or exceeds PTS prior to check ride" if those things are not
even
in the PTS?

exceeds!!!! means to cover them subjects that are not in the PTS.

To extend beyond the PTS
To be greater than; surpass the PTS
To go beyond the limits of the PTS

If you have a student and he/she wanted to do his 150NM X-C and he/she
needed to fly through a mountian pass would you cover it till he could do
it safely or would you give the student a general verbal overview and let
the student mess up and possible kill himself or someone else on the ground.



I was allowed to do every thing in the PTS as a student on solo flights
as
long as I demonstrated profiecenty.

Goodie for you. So what?

but
the argument "he'll be able to do it after the checkride, so why not
before?" is just plain silly.

So if you know a student cannot fly well or be safe at night you would
sign
him off for a check ride knowing that he would be unsafe at night?

I have no idea where you got such a ridiculous idea.

Ridiculous? You would put your name on somone that you could not trust to be
safe at night it could come back to byte you.


that is just plain silly and rather reckless.

Of course it is. So what?


So you condone reckless activity?


The point of it all is building
proficiency not racing the clock to see how few of hours you can do it
in
required 3 hours

So what? I never said "the point of it all" is "racing the clock".

but if it take 10 or 12 or even 20 hours of night to be
safe & proficient then so be it.

Yes, so be it. It takes as much time to train a pilot to certain
standards
as it takes the pilot to be trained to those standards. That's not
exactly
a news flash, and I never disagreed with that philosophy.

However, even in 10 hours, you are not going to train a pilot to complete
proficiency in night flying. And even if you could, that does not
necessarily mean that there's generally going to be a good reason for an
instructor to take the risk of endorsing the student for solo night flight
(though, obviously in some cases, there will be a good reason to do so).

There are a lot of good reasons to do so 1, experience for the student and
2, knowing that the student can handle the extra added mental pressure at
night. Same risk as endorsing the student for solo day flight. If the
instructor is confident in his training abilities and proficiency of the
student why not let the student solo at night with limits.



Just because they are not examined except by the instructor on night
flying
and night proficiency doesn't mean you can skimp on that part of the
flight
training.

I never said you could.

You implied


It appears to me that you are simply making up stuff to disagree with.
None
of the stuff you are disagreeing with are in any way representative of
statements I've made.

Pete



I did not make anything up! That's the way I interpreted what you said.



I think that if an instructor don't feel comfortable with the students night
flying then that instructor should require extra flight time with the
student to make sure that student can handle night flying safely. Prior to
check ride the PTS is just the min that is required to be coverd during
training and is to be used as a guide is what I was told and also told that
it never hurts to make up your own standards that exceed the ones in the
PTS. I know i would not chouse a instructor that only did the min that was
required. Enough on the other subjects the discussion is night time solo for
students.

So my final thought is if you think the student can handle night solo then
do it. If you don't think the student can handle it then time for more night
training till you think the student can handel it.