OH, gee, Eric, I know we have to get down to brass tacks when we
disagree. I always learn something when you have lively discussions
with any of us.

My replies follow in context below.

Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...
John Gilbert wrote:

The (USA) State record rules say "Except as provided by these rules,
State Records shall comply with the FAI Sporting Code, Section 3
("SC3") and to the additional requirements of Section 6.0 below."

Even though they "must comply with the Sporting Code", the rules are not
part of the Sporting Code. State records are operated independent of the
FAI system, and simply copy the rules.

Agreed, my point exactly. One must follow the Sporting Code rules.


In the Sporting Code Section 3, Chapter 4.2.2 Declaration Validity,
paragraph a. "The last declaration made before takeoff is the only one
valid for the flight, but a concurrently flown and different
competition task is allowed."

I think you have to read these context: these rules apply to FAI flight
achievements, not SSA records, which are not part of the FAI system.

Ah, I read this literally. "The last declaration made before takeoff
is the only one valid for the flight, ..."

One declaration per flight. Not one declaration per organization. Not
one declaration per rule making body.


So I don't see any way that more than one (valid) declaration can
exist for a flight AND still comply with the Sporting Code.

I agree with that you that Sporting Code allows only one valid
declaration for a Badge or World Record flight. This is to prevent the
pilot from choosing declaration in or after flight. But why can't you
have another declaration for another set of rules by a different
organization? This declaration would not be valid for FAI badge or World
record claims - no question about that -but it would/should be valid for
a USA state record claim. Because the SSA State rules only allow one
valid declaration, the declaration for the FAI badges, etc., would not
be valid for the State Record attempt.

These are separate sets of rules, and even though the SSA State record
rules reference the FAI rules, they are NOT FAI rules!

True, but if the FAI rules say one declaration per flight, then that
is it.


Either
the one in the flight recorder is the last one made, or the paper one
is the last one made. Maybe you can talk an OO into verifying a flight
with two "valid" declarations, but I think it is not in the intention
of the rules to do so. It ain't, well, sporting.

The OO is not being asked to verify a claim with two "valid"
declarations, he just observes the flight and attests to the correctness
of the procedures and documentation. The FAI badge claim, with

The procedure is to have one declaration for the flight, as I read it.

supporting documentation (including the declaration made for the FAI),
is sent to the FAI Award representative (Judy Ruprecht currently) for
the USA. She evaluates the claim.

The SSA State record claim, with it's supporting documentation
(including the declaration made for the SSA), is sent to the SSA record
keeper for the State, who evaluates the claim for the State.

The intent of the FAI rules is to have one declaration, and only one,
apply to the Badge/world record claim, and that would be achieved; ditto
for the SSA record claim. The pilot would not be allowed to pick which
declaration went with which claim after the flight.

Only starting and finish points, and turnpoints, are required on a
declaration.
There seems to be no requirement to declare what attempt is being
made. There is no place in my flight recorder to say what performance
is to be claimed. How can an OO know which declaration went with which
claim after the flight?


I see nothing unsporting about following the rules. The claim for a
badge/world record is not affected in any way by a concurrent claim for
an SSA state record. No matter what was on each declaration, it would
not have the slightest impact on the claim supported by the other
declaration.

Concurrent claims are not the issue. FAI and national and (in US)
state claims all can be made on one declaration and its corresponding
flight. And free distance claims can be made on declared flights with
declared performance.

I have no doubt that SSA rules could allow a separate declaration for
a different declared performance, and as you describe, would not
conflict with the FAI rules. But I don't see any such exception.
Apparently, neither did Judy, after reading her previous email.


Since it seems like this has not come up before, I doubt that there is
any precedence, so it would be wise to discuss this with Judy R and your
state record keeper before trying it. My opinion may not sway the people
that have to evaluate your claim!

Well, I really think that you got your answer. If Judy R sees two
different claims coming in from the same person/same flight she is
going to see if there were two declarations. The big question is,
which claim will not be validated? I think it will be the one that
goes with the declaration with the earlier time (stamp).

Regards,
John