On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:02:08 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:43:05 -0700, Ed Rasimus
wrote in
::

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:50:56 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:


In the unlikely event of property damage due to an Air Force
activity, the Air Force has established procedures for damage
claims.

I'm sure that is a great comfort to Ms. Jacques Olivier and her
daughter:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X22313&key=1

How does expansion of a MOA for operations above 10,000 feet in New
Mexico relate to a mid-air collision in Florida on a low-level
training route?

The USAF's statement regarding claims procedures for "damage due to
Air Force activity" is probably inadequate to replace Ms. Oliveier's
late husband.

And, your arguments citing a mishap in Florida relating to a MOA
change in New Mexico are inadequate to address the training
requirements of combat forces in high performance tactical jet
aircraft. I'm deeply sympathetic to Ms Olivier or Oliveier, but I'm
also sympathetic to the surviving wives and families of quite
literally hundreds of USAF, USN and USMC tactical aviators who died or
were imprisoned when lost in military flight operations in the service
of their country.

The November 16, 2000 fatal F-16/Cessna 172 MAC occurred at 3,000' at
subsonic speed.

I believe the expansion of the MOA relates to low-level supersonic
military operations within "5,000 to 6,000 feet above ground level
(AGL)".

So, creating a MOA which would advise all aircraft operators of the
intended operations would not be as good as operating in non-special
use airspace as was being done in the Florida accident?



These mishap rates do not consider combat losses due to enemy
action. F-16C aircraft have flown more than 3,336,700 hours since
the aircraft entered the Air Force inventory during Fiscal Year
1985. Over that period, 120 Class A mishaps have occurred and 113
aircraft have been destroyed.


That would be an average of one F-16C non-combat Class A mishap every
two months!

Dunno about your math skills here,

Perhaps you'll be good enough to assist me in calculating the number
of F-16C non-combat mishaps per month given the USAF's statement, that
120 Class A mishaps have occurred to date (Jan. 2005) since the 1985
Fiscal Year.

My point was that 3.3 MILLION hours per 120 mishaps (which aren't all
mid-airs or even aircraft losses and which didn't all occur in special
sue airspace) is a statistic that is better viewed as mishaps/100k
flight hours rather than mishaps/month.

but I just read about 120 class A
mishaps during the period from FY 1985 to the present--that's a bit
more than 20 years of experience and doesn't begin to address rates
per 100,000 flying hours which for the F-16 (all models) are
significantly lower than previous single-seat, single-engine tactical
aircraft.

Be that as it may, I was commenting on the number of F-16C non-combat
mishaps per month.

Which means what relative to training airspace in NM?

The numbers might confirm the contention that flying high performance
tactical aircraft is somewhat dangerous and therefore some airspace
reservation is a good idea.

I agree, that it tends to confirm the danger involved in flying USAF
F-16C's in a non-combat environment.

In ANY environment.

Whether or not additional reserved airspace for low-level supersonic
military operations will improved the F-16C's non-combat Class A
bimonthly mishap rate is a speculative matter at best.

Precisely! The mishap rate and the need for training airspace are not
related to each other!


IFR traffic would require ATC clearance to transit the active MOA.
However, VFR traffic could transit the active MOA using the
“see-and-avoid” concept.


The USAF's suggestion that VFR traffic employ see-and-avoid techniques
to avoid mid-air collisions with supersonic military fighter aircraft
reveals a their desire to mislead.

It isn't "the USAF's suggestion", it is the basic concept of Visual
Flight Rules.

Yes. It is the 'law' of VFR operations, however in this case it was
suggested as a _viable_ means of transiting the proposed MOA while
low-level supersonic military operations are in progress!

First, note that the tactical applicability of supersonic operations
at high or low altitude is very limited. Second, note that most
PLANNED supersonic operation is done at high altitude, such as
high-speed intercept training. Third, note that UNPLANNED supersonic
operation can occur momentarily during air combat maneuver/BFM
training and that might be at relatively low altitude (although most
tactical training employs a 10k or 5k AGL "floor"). Fourth, note that
most training in which supersonic operations are planned or highly
likely will be conducted in restricted airspace rather than MOA.
Fifth, note that transiting of MOAs by VFR traffic while allowed is
discourage; by IFR traffic is not allowed when the MOA is in use.

Nothing misleading about it--the idea of VFR is to
provide simple rules for flight in VISUAL conditions and without need
for a flight plan or clearance or external third-party deconfliction.

The NAS is a system. As such, it is dependent on each aspect of its
implementation to be functional in order for the whole to function
properly.

FARs are part of that system. The prohibiting of flight in excess of
250 knots below 10,000 feet is a FAR. The military has exploited the
"SPEED AUTHORIZATION GRANTED TO DOD May 18, 1978" which states:

The regulation grants an exception to aircraft having flight
characteristics which preclude safe operation at speeds below 250
knots by providing that if the minimum safe airspeed for any
particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed,
the aircraft may be operated at that minimum safe airspeed.

When the speed of aircraft below 10,000 feet exceeds 250 knots as
mandated by FAR § 91.117(a)*, the integrity of the NAS is compromised
as evidenced by at least two of the three military/civil mishaps, and
corroborated by the military's own study which concluded, that out of
each 20 seconds of flight below 250 knots, 17 seconds must be
dedicated to scanning for conflicting traffic and 3 seconds remained
for scanning cockpit gages; this was for "highly trained" military
pilots.

So it is evident that see-and-avoid is completely impracticable for
maintaining aircraft separation when aircraft are traveling in excess
of Mach one.

You confirm my asssertion of cluelessness. Some military aircraft
don't function very well at 250 KIAS unless in landing configuration.
They burn fuel at high rates and are restricted in their agility. For
that reason the FARs have waivered the 250 max exactly for the reason
you quote "minimum SAFE airspseed".

Let's take this to an example you are probably more familiar with:
driving your car. How much time when driving do you spend looking out
the window versus staring at your speedometer? Ditto for airplanes.

Look out the window and don't bump into things in front of you.

Oh, if it were only so simple.

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.

You might also note that aircraft below 10,000 MSL (except in some
special use airspace) is already restricted to airspeeds below 250
KIAS.

Of course, the military has found a way around that speed restriction.
(see above)

And, you can take it to the bank that they will continue to do so.


Is that an additional airspace grab?

"Additional"? If there were not similar airspace adjustments going on
all the time with both increases and reductions in airspace.

If there are so many adjustments occurring, it should be easy to
provide several examples of _reductions_ in military airspace, please.

Did you read previous posts? Walker AFB, Roswell NM. Williams AFB,
Chandler AZ. Webb AFB, Big Spring TX. Wendover AFB, Wendover UT.
Wurtsmith AFB....and those are just W's--all closed within the last 30
years, all with airspace which was no longer needed.

That the USAF can muster the audacity to suggest that see-and-avoid
would be a successful technique for separating _supersonic_ aircraft
is hubris beyond comprehension.

Guess what? Civilian aircraft operating under "see-and-avoid" run into
each other at subsonic speeds with much greater frequency.

That may be due to the relative number of aircraft and the number of
operational hours between the military and civil fleets.

And, it may even be due to private pilots being clueless about where
they are. Or maybe they are talking on their cell phones.

And, when the military is involved in any mishap an investigation
is conducted, reported in the public domain and blame is assigned.

Actually, the same thing occurs for civil mishaps; the NTSB finds and
reports probable cause. The specific action taken by the FAA against
a civil pilot is a matter of public record. Here's what occurred in
the case of the November 16, 2000 fatal MAC in Florida:

Air Force officials said the mistakes [sic] Lt. Col. Parker made
leading up to the crash over Manatee County deserved only
"administrative action" — a written or verbal reprimand. He will
also retain his officer's pension.

The decision regarding Parker was made by Brig. Gen. John Rosa,
commander of Moody Air Force Base in south Georgia, where the F-16
pilots were stationed at the time of the crash.

Citing confidentiality laws, Air Force officials would not
elaborate on what form of administrative action was taken. They
also would not say which of the mistakes he made the day of the
crash led to the reprimand, the Sarasota Herald-Tribune
reported...

-- Associated Press

If you read the accident report you would find a clear detailing of
the "mistakes" and you would learn whether they were primary,
secondary or lesser causes.

As for the "administrative action" it could range from corrective
training to removal from flight status to loss of pay to mandatory
retirement. But, the mere fact that he didn't have his sword broken,
his buttons cut off and his epaulets removed before hanging in the
public square MIGHT mean he wasn't guilty of anything significant!

The "hubris beyond comprehension" here is your flogging of the issue
with little apparent background and a total unwillingness to
acknowledge any of the alternatives to your pronouncements.

When the government perpetrates injustice, it is the prerogative of a
citizen of a free nation to publicly air his views. I believe I have
provided evidence of reasonable background knowledge, and haven't seen
any alternative "pronouncements" to which you refer.

Injustice? Going through a public hearing process before designating
special use airspace is now "injustice"?

And, reread my sentence above: "unwillingness to acknowledge any of
the alternatives to your pronouncements"--that's not "alternative
'prounouncement'".

Posters have given you blocks of information regarding special use
airspace refuting your basic position opposing expansion of the MOA.
You continue to throw stuff at the wall hoping that some sticks,
regardless of relevance.

What of the reduction of property values do supersonic military
aircraft operations above 30,000' feet over the affected area?

For aircraft the size of F-16s, sonic booms above 30,000 feet are
usually not heard on the surface. That's why most supersonic airspace
in the US is at high altitudes.

The proposed MOA enlargement is to permit supersonic operations at
between 5,000' and 6,000' as stated in the USAF EIS. Why are you
referring to 30,000' feet? That is the current, not proposed,
altitude floor in the MOA for supersonic operations.

I'm referring to 30,000 feet BECAUSE YOU REFERRED TO 30,000 FEET!!!!!
That's YOUR quote above mine.

Oh, and lest I forget....screw you, Larry. You're clueless.

Ed Rasimus

Well, it would appear one of us is. But at least I'm not forced to
profane a fellow airman due to lack of reasonable arguments.

Excuse me? I've got more time in the Beak MOA inverted than you've
apparently got in military jets. And, if you've missed my presentation
of "reasonable arguments" you can't read. Oh, and "screw you" isn't
profaning you, it's exercising restraint despite the frustration at
your apparent inability to make any sense of all of this.

If you want profaning of "a fellow airman", I suggest you scan recent
posts from Dudley--he's proven a master at it. But, I can stoop if
need be.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com