On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:30:44 -0700, Ed Rasimus
wrote in
::

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:03:37 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

What I've found to be particularly useful is contacting the military
ATC, and making them aware of my position and intended route, so they
can shield me from the military operations occurring in the MOA (by
alerting nearby participating military aircraft) and providing radar
traffic advisories.

Doesn't civilian communication with military controllers just make
good sense for VFR civil aircraft transiting a hot MOA?

It makes imminent good sense, but there are some flaws in your
rationale.

1.) the "military ATC" (an oxymoron at this point regarding MOAs)
operates on UHF, while you in your GA aircraft use VHF. While the
military RAPCON and tower may have VHF capability, they often don't
monitor beyond their primary frequency or you may not have access to
the one Victor freq. they do monitor.

In my case, Center handed me off to the military controller on a VHF
frequency.

I was northbound out of Mormon Mesa VORTAC to Lincoln, County Airport
(1L1) in Nevada, which is about 30 miles west of the eastern border of
the Desert MOA (floor 100' AGL). There's a note on the Las Vegas
sectional chart advising pilots to "contact Nellis Control on 126.65
or nearest FSS prior to entering MOA." So I suppose they are
expecting to provide some assistance to VFR flights.

2.) they aren't responsible for the MOA. The FAA is.

As I was VFR, no one but me was taking _responsibility_ for my flight.

3.) they seldom have radar coverage of the MOA, since it isn't their
responsibility.

This military controller apparently had me on radar.

4.) Even if they did have radar, they did have Victor, and they
wouldn't be stepping on ATC's toes, they aren't going to deconflict
you if you are VFR.

As I stated initially, the military controller wasn't providing
separation. He was just alerting nearby participating military
aircraft and providing radar traffic advisories for me.

The military controller was aware of my position, and although I
couldn't hear his communications with the military aircraft, he seemed
to be attempting to keep us separated.

5.) Once cleared to operate in the MOA by ATC, the military aircraft
are on a discrete UHF frequency. They don't maintain a vector long
enough for ATC to provide any sort of prediction of flight path and
they may be contactable by ATC only on Guard. The ATC controller has
the MOA discrete, but won't be listening to the in flight chatter
which may be secure anyway.

6.) It is a poorly understood concept of IFR that somehow someone "can
shield me"--you are only guaranteed separation from other traffic if
you a
a.) on an IFR flight plan

In Class G airspace, IFR flights are not separated by ATC.

b.) in controlled airspace

Actually, VFR flights in Class C controlled airspace are not separated
by ATC.

c.) in IMC

That seems redundant with 'a' above. If you're in IMC without benefit
of an IFR clearance, you've got bigger issues than separation from
other traffic.


If you fail to meeet any one of those three conditions, the
responsibility for safe separation returns to the basic principle of
VFR, "see-and-avoid".

Actually, if you are in VMC at any time, you are _required_ to
see-and-avoid. But military pilots on VR MTRs don't seem to
appreciate that fact:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...13X33340&key=1


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com