-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
m...

Thank you. This is EXACTLY what I've been trying to get at all
along in this thread. You *MUST* hear 'Cleared into Class Bravo
Airspace' to be allowed to enter Bravo airspace. That is your clearance
into it. Even the FARs state it:

Sec. 91.131 - Operations in Class B airspace.

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B
airspace area except in compliance with ?91.129 and the following
rules:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility
having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that
area.

Some people just fail to understand that.


The regulation says the operator must receive an ATC clearance, it does not
state he *MUST* hear 'Cleared into Class Bravo Airspace' to be allowed to
enter Bravo airspace.

I'm telling you, as well as the 7110.65P tells you, that you
will hear that. Going from the opposite direction, you will hear
something from Clearance Delivery, stating:

Mooney 64B, cleared out of Las Vegas Class Bravo Airspace. On
departure, turn left heading 160, climb/maintain 5000, departure
frequency 118.4, squawk 0633.

There's your clearance out of Bravo. If you're VFR, you'll hear
'Cleared into Class Bravo Airspace'. That's ATC regulations there, and
ATC are to adhere to that.


Even more than that, if they tell you to remain outside of
Bravo airspace, or any airspace, and give you a reason, pilots are
requested to read that back.


Previously you said it MUST be read back, now you say it's a REQUEST. What
caused you to change your mind? Where does ATC make this request known to
pilots?

I'll say request, because even a 'roger' is acknowledgment. But
if ATC must get a readback that the pilot acknowledges and knows he
must tay outside of that airspace. Apparently, for as much a love you
have for aviation, your lack of knowledge of the regulation
documentation really disturbs me, as an ATC. Call your local TRACON or
center facility, and ask them about Class Bravo airspace and readbacks
regarding entering and leaving it.


ATC is going to expect a readback.


What makes you think that?

Because they will.


If not, they will repeat it.


What makes you think that?

Because you hadn't read anything back.

If no readback is given, they aren't going to *ASSUME* anything.


If there's no response they're going to assume the message was not received
and repeat it. If the message is acknowledged but not read back they're
going to conclude the message was received and understood by the pilot and
that particular little matter is then closed. If the message is read back
they're going to conclude the message was received and understood by the
pilot and that particular little matter is then closed.

No response = no confirmation that their call was received.
That could mean lost communications, which ATC has another set of
regulations to follow, to find out your situation.

They aren't going to think 'oh, he heard it, let me
worry about separating my aircraft flying into JFK, LAS', or any major
field, they are going to get that readback from you, or send up the
F18s to escort you down/shoot you down, depending on how grave the
situation is.


What makes you think you know what ATC thinks?

I'm training for ATC. We're supposed to keep separation of
aircraft, as well as the pilots of those aircrafts safe. That requires
communication. Communication is two-sided. If ATC is trying to
communicate, and doesn't hear the other side acknowledging, ATC isn't
going to assume everything is hunky-dory, and go about his other
business, especially in Class Bravo. He's going to want acknowledgment
that his call was heard and understood.


Class C, on the other hand, requires 2-way comunication. When
that is established, unless told otherwise, you have clearance through
Class C airspace. If ATC tells you to not enter it, for whatever
reason, you don't enter it. In short, once again, if the 2-way
communication is established between pilot and ATC, the clearance
into/through Class C airspace is implied, and pilots may fly through.


So it no longer requires radar contact prior to entry?

If requiring flight following, yes. Either the controller
handing the pilot off to an Approach/Departure controller operating
class C will have already made radar contact, or if the pilot contacts
the Approach/Departure controller and requests flight following, they
will be given a transponder code and radar identified. Otherwise there
is no flight following.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFCfn8eyBkZmuMZ8L8RAlklAJ0bzd4LdL9mPl/PiAYDwNbrKhRPkACcCxCp
PtAWQHDATYjdAaVnt/7no2Q=
=uJha
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----