"Jose" wrote in message
news
My strict reading of 61.51(e) says that if you are not the "sole
manipulator", then even if you =are= the PIC, then so long as anybody
else is handling the controls, you can't log PIC time,Y

You better read 61.51 again. There are three more clauses than the
one you're reading.

I didn't think they were relevant to the discussion.

Rec, private, or comm pilot may log PIC if...
sole manipulator (& rated) ... or sole occupant ... or (not except for rec
pilots) =is= PIC when two pilots are required.

The other clauses pertain to ATPs, authorized instructors, and student
pilots. So I was focusing on the first set.

We were discussing a situation where only one pilot is required, and there
is another occupant of the aircraft. In this case, I believe that as I
wrote above, a strict reading says that even if you =are= the actual Pilot
In Command (perhaps by dint of being the only pilot aboard, perhaps by
another dint), then if anybody else is handling the controls, you can't
log PIC time. However, if an FAA approved robot is handling the controls,
then you can.

Handling the robot (turning on the autopilot) apparantly counts as
handling a control. You can program the FMS to do the takeoff, cruise,
and landing, take a nap, and set an alarm for when your wheels touch the
ground again, and log the whole thing as PIC. You can do this with a
non-FAA approved robot too, if you are flying an experimental class
aircraft. (At least I think that's true - how much does the FAA get
involved in certification of instrumentation and such for experimentals?)
It's unclear as to whether you can let a monkey operate the controls and
still log it as PIC (which may be a problem for those that employ the
cat-dog-duck method of IFR flight), but if you let a human act as your
autopilot, a strict reading of the rules says nix on the logbook.

So, you (a regular private pilot) go up in a 172 with a friend who is not
a pilot, you let him take the controls while you very carefully supervise
her, and you can't log the time PIC. The next day you fly a Cirrus by
programming the CID (Cirrus Autoflight Device) and pushing the GO button,
essentially become a passenger while the glass cockpit does the work, and
all that time goes in your book as PIC.

Doesn't make sense to me. This is why I mention the organic autopilot.

Jose
--
I used to make money in the stock market, now I make money in the
basement.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

I think that it is simpler. You can log pilot time when the FAA requires
you to be in the airplane performing as pilot. If you are not required (ie
you are one of 4 pilots in a 172) you can't log the time.

If you go through the specific rules this seems to hold true. Every time
that there is an instance where two pilots can log time, it is becasue two
pilots are required by regulation.

Mike
MU-2