"Antoņio" wrote in message
oups.com...
I stand behoved.
Good. That's a start.
Obviously wrong. You'd better check the charts again as it appears your
recall is inaccurate.
I have current charts, and I examine them on a regular basis. They support
my statements.
That is where I still have a bit of confusion, Peter. If the
controlled tells me "enter a left downwind for..." and follows it with
"cleared to land; follow the Arrow ...." which is still a couple of
miles out...am I not following ATC instructions?
Yes, if you do what the controller says, you are following ATC instructions.
However, that has nothing to do with whether you are cleared into the Class
B airspace.
If I am following ATC
instructions, should I not expect the two controllers ( at Bravo and
Delta ) to be communicating without me having to break in and remind
the controller, "Hey fellah...I am about to bust B...why don't you..."
?
You should not. Especially when the Class D controller's instruction
doesn't require you to fly into the Class B airspace.
The absence of a provision tells me there is an absence of a provision.
It tells me nothing positive.
That's silly. Using that logic, every single regulation would require a
statement "you must comply with this regulation". The absence of any other
exception to 91.131(a)(1) means you need to comply with 91.131(a)(1).
And how does the absence of "such a provision" indicate that I should
deviate from ATC instructions if I am about to enter class Bravo? I was
told, "FOLLOW THE ARROW"...so I followed the Arrow. The safe timing of
this action demanded that I fly a little futher downwind.
You would need to deviate in order to avoid violating 91.131(a)(1). An
instruction from ATC is not a free pass to violate the FARs.
No clearance, no entry.
Not necessarilly true in other cases--such as while on an IFR flight
plan.
My understanding is that we are talking about a specific situation here, in
which an IFR flight plan is not part of the scenario.
I followed ATC instructions. What more can the FAA ask of me?
They can (and do) ask that as pilot in command you take final authority for
the safety and legality of your flight. FAR 91.3
You named other outs earlier: A 360, an upwind crossover, a turn
upwind to a go around, and other "deviations" which I was not directly
told to do. To do these manuvers would have been dangerous, given the
situation.
First of all, the deviations are purely hypothetical. There was no reason
to enter the Class B in this particular instance, so for you to get hung up
over alternative methods of avoiding the Class B is a bit disingenuous.
Secondly, I find it mind-boggling that you would rather fly into airspace
protected specifically for the purpose of keeping you away from airliners
landing at Sea-Tac airport, than to take the lesser risk and negotiate your
way around the Class D airspace. None of the maneuvers I speak of are
particularly dangerous, certainly not compared to flying through the final
approach of an airliner.
The mandate to stay out of Class B airspace is not simply regulatory. It is
there for a reason: to keep you from being running over by airliners. For
you to complain about potential safety hazards when avoiding Class B
airspace as a justification for flying through Class B airspace without a
clearance is just plain dumb.
I think this is an oversimplification. The controllers have many
options and responsibilities that go beyond just what you have called
out.
No, actually they don't. They provide additional services as they are able
to, but their responsibility ends right where I said it does.
Yes, I know. I sure hope I never have to follow you into BFI as you
decide to do a 360 on the downwind for better spacing !
I'm guessing that if I ever did, you wouldn't even notice. There's a lot
more room up there, even at Boeing Field, than you apparently think.
I think you might be simply positioning here. You should rethink these
maneuvers. In my opinion, they do nothing to increase the safety in
congested airspace like BFI. You just don't have time to communicate
your intentions. You leave the controller with the necessity to call
you up and ask, "What are you doing?".
I have spent plenty of time in the pattern at Boeing Field. Yes, it's a
busy airport. But there is still LOTS of room in the air. I have had
several go-arounds caused by a variety of reasons, and there's lots of room
above the airport to maneuver safely.
Keep in mind that what transpired from the time I was at the end of the
runway to turning base behind the Arrow (albeit a bit late) was about
30 seconds.
Assuming airspeed of 90 knots, that puts you in the Class B airspace only
3/4 mile from the runway end. The only way for that to happen is for you be
on a VERY wide downwind.
You would never have been able to do that this particular day without
stepping on others and disrupting the whole flow.
The difficulty in reporting your actions to ATC should not cause you fail to
take appropriate actions. "Aviate, navigate, communicate". There's a
reason the radio is the last item in that list.
To be fair I will check out your assertions further. However, this does
not alter the fact that the controller called me up to mention the
class B airspace ahead. I would bet you a smug look that this happens
all the time there.
It's true, Class B violations and near-violations do happen frequently. I
know one person who, while a student, managed to bust the TCA (as it was
called at the time) twice. But it doesn't happen to people who pay
attention to where the airspace is and where they are. There is nothing
about the airspace configuration that makes it impossible to fly normal
patterns while remaining outside the Class B.
I am not "uncomfortable flying in tight quarters". I am uncomfortable
when I don't know the best way to handle a situation. Which is what my
question was about.
The best way to handle this particular situation is to fly a downwind that
doesn't take you into the Class B.
If you are not uncomfortable flying in tight quarters, then you should have
no trouble at all flying a downwind that doesn't take you into the Class B.
So, which is it? Are you comfortable flying in tight quarters, or was it
impossible for you to avoid the Class B while obeying the ATC instruction to
extend your downwind? Only one of those two possibilities can be true.
Many other pilots manage to extend their downwind on left traffic to 31L
every day, without flying into the Class B. The only pilots who find this
impossible are those who are not comfortable staying close to the runway.
My comment about flying tight quarters is based simply on observed facts.
If you find it condescending (see below), that's your problem. I didn't
even say that you ARE uncomfortable, just that if you are (and thus
explaining why we are even having this thread in the first place), you could
seek more training.
Your condescension is unwarranted and often characteristic of your
posting style.
You should review the definition of "condescension". The mere fact that I
point out the error in your statements does not make me condescending.
As long as we're criticizing each other for personality defects, you should
probably review the five hazardous attitudes. "Anti-authority" in
particular. You are so convinced that you have every right to bust the
Class B, that you refuse to listen to someone trying to explain to you that
there was no reason to bust the Class B in the first place, nor that you
have the right to just go around violating the FARs at a whim.
Pete
|