"Yossarian" wrote in message
. 97.142...
I was using a Frasca 141 sim today with an instructor when this question
came up. Fullerton CA (KFUL) VOR-A approach. At WILMA on V64, flying the
full approach. Do you need to turn outbound at the VOR for the procedure
turn?

Instructor says no because a Victor airway leads to the IAF. I say yes
because even though that's true, "No PT" is not listed on that feeder
route.

You'll need a true expert to answer the question with certainty. However...

I agree with your instructor. AFAIK, there is NEVER a requirement to make a
procedure turn. The "NoPT" exists to prohibit a procedure turn, not to tell
you when you are required to make one. Obviously, if you're going the wrong
way, you need a course reversal at some point. But that's a practical
requirement, not a regulatory one.

In the case of the approach from ALBAS, not only is there clearly no need
for a procedure turn, they've even gone so far as to put the IAF way out
there. While I'm not an expert in the TERPS, I suspect that there's
something in there that stipulates when "NoPT" is used; probably any arrival
30 degrees or less from the final approach course gets a "NoPT" (the arrival
from ALBAS just barely squeaks by). If the approach designer had been given
the latitude to put "NoPT" on any arrival where he thinks a procedure turn
is unnecessary, we'd probably see that on the arrival from WILMA too.

I would agree that in general, it would be nice to be established on the
final approach course at the FAF. But again, I'm not aware of any
requirement for this. Assuming you can cross the FAF at the FAF (which
should never be in question), and then immediately establish yourself on the
final approach course (which should be no problem in this case), I don't see
any problem.

As far as I can tell, the procedure turn on that approach is for pilots who
are coming at the VOR from the opposite direction. For example, someone who
flew the missed approach.

Of course, lacking the "NoPT", you are of course welcome to fly the whole
procedure turn. But you're looking at 45 seconds or so just to get
established outbound parallel to the final approach course, and that's not
counting the time spent flying back to it (and then, of course, the time for
the procedure turn itself). I'm betting not many people fly the procedure
turn coming in from WILMA.

I'm a little curious as to how this question is on r.a.piloting, but not on
r.a.ifr. I've cross-posted for your benefit (and quoted your entire post
for theirs).

Pete