"Dave S" wrote

Oh? I've read quite a bit of stuff, and I've yet to come across something
that lets ATC take a MOA or Restricted area back at their choosing.

ATC often is in communication with aircraft in the MOA or Restricted area.
I have had times when I have been vectored through an MOA or Restricted area
which is officially hot but the controller advises me he has coordinated
with the aircraft in that area.


Back to the original point... You dont have to accept what they are
offering. But they dont have to offer you what you want (or NEED). They
also cant offer what the "system" wont provide.

I think we probably agree here. The point is that there needs to be
negotiation both ways. You are correct that sometimes ATC cannot give you
what you want. It is also equally correct that a pilot does not need to
accept whatever re-route is given to him if there is a potential safety of
flight issue. Certainly "Unable re-route into convective weather" or
"Unable re-route to SCAPE due to convective wather" should be accepted by
ATC. Considering in this case the re-route is at their request (not for
example a pilot request to deviate around weather), it seems to me incumbent
upon ATC to propose a solution... the solution may be a different altitude
or vectors for spacing or a brief hold but certainly it is not reasonable
for ATC to expect a re-route to an area of active or even potentially active
thunderstorms and I do not think ATC requiring someone to land short of
their destination is appropriate either absent some critical infrastructure
failure or national security event.


the nearest field and sort it out on the ground. The phrase " XXX approach
is refusing to handle you" tells me that they are not going to play ball.

Actually the phrase "Approach is refusing to handle you" tells me this is
ATC's problem, not mine, and they need to come up with the solution, not me.
I would tend to be much more flexible if ATC told me about some specific
reason why airspace I was already cleared into is all of a sudden not
available. Just telling me some ATC facility "is refusing to handle you"
seems bizarre to me if I have already been cleared through that airspace.

Perhaps the airspace was busy, perhaps there was a "push" going on in the
middle of the desired sectors, perhaps what you wanted was contrary to an
exiting LOA between center and approach, and approach was within their
right to say "preferred routing or go all the way around".

All of which are contrary to my existing clearance in this case and thus
suggest to me that ATC ought to be a bit more helpful in proposing a
solution that does not involve thunderstorms.


No matter how you cut it, unless you are excercising emergency authority,
you have to go where they tell you.

No, there is no emergency authority needed here. Saying "Unable Re-Route
through convective weather" is no different than when ATC misunderstands the
performance of my piston plane and requests an expedited climb in hot
weather at a rate of climb my plane is unable to deliver. "Unable" means
just what is says --- my plane is unable to fly through convective weather
and it is unable to maintain an 800FPM climb in the flight levels. I need
no emergency authority to advise ATC of this.

and most of the times they can work with you. But.. push comes to shove,
you have to fly your clearance.

Correct... you have to fly the clearance that you accepted. You do NOT need
to accept a new clearance if your airplane is unable for performance or
safety reasons to fly that new clearance.

If you dont accept it, you are the one who has to deal with it if no other
alternatives are forthcoming.

In the case described here, it is incumbent on ATC to propose an alternate
clearance within my airpane's abilities.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com