Evan Carew wrote:
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shrike,

Interesting analysis. As one of the few who gets it, I think you can
appreciate why I chose the open source solution to publishing the data.
Any use of the community data is acceptance of an as-is contract where
any derivative works may not be patented or hoarded as trade secrets.
This also tends to insulate the technology publishers reasonably well
from litigation.

Sometimes the contract is the end of the negotiation. Sometimes it is
the beginning. A hold harmless agreement; though common in end user
licenses; are trounced by safety law. In most states you cannot legally
sign away your own right to safety. Consequently you'll find many
software agreements specically disclaim the use of the software in
situations requiring fault tolerance. For example, MS would really you
rather NOT use Winblows to run say a pacemaker.

So while the open source license protects the right to redistribution
it only marginally protects the authors. In the case of Open
Engineering an aircraft that exposure is amplified.


It is important to note that the point of this project is rather narrow.
I am not advocating the development of a specific set of plans for a
completed aircraft structure, but rather a set of procedures to set up a
shop to build such a structure in the cheapest manner. A quick analysis
on my part (followed up by data from other members on this list)
identified labor costs as being the #1 largest cost in pricing an
aircraft structure for sale in the LSA or small GA market. Granted,
there are other issues such as political, high engine prices, high
instrument prices, high materials prices, FBO desirability, etc. that I
am not addressing here, however, one must start somewhere.


Yes you do have to start somewhere. Try Excel, and reading the
certification requirements in the FARS. (Available online) All the
stuff your talking about will be defined more by the financial model of
the company, than it will by the aircraft selected. The bird has to fit
into the budget, the budget doesn't fit the bird. (Unless your on a
government contract)

To reiterate the aircraft is the _small_ part. And while everybody is
enthusiastic about aircraft technology, very few people have the
patience to sit in front of a spread sheet or a lawbook and fidget
until they understand those issues.

Labor _hours_ can be drastically reduced with modern tooling, there is
no question about that. Whether manufacturing _costs_ can be is a
different issue. You have to figure land labor and capital as a
percentage of projected revenues to be able to tell whether the new
tooling makes sense.

Stop thinking about the plane. Start thinking about the financial model
that supports the project. Then start thinking about the people who
wouldn't want you to succeed and what they would do to prevent you from
succeeding. (The people you would put out of business) That will give
you a picture of the bull you are casually talking about riding. Once
you have that picture ask youself whether you're still interested in
riding it.

This whole thread is really about defining what constitutes "barrier to
entry" in the light aircraft market. There is a whole science involved
in doing what your doing. I think the reason your getting a lot of
attitude is that your talking about financial issues in a engineering
forum. Really you should start addressing your questions to somebody
who understands business finance. You've got the cart before the ox
IMHO.

If your interested in open-sourcing and distributing a free aircraft
design optimized for modern tooling I totally applaud. Then you best
bet is to set up a non-profit to do that (Can be done online for
~$250), and start soliciting help. Once you have one or two designers
and robot guy on board, start soliciting the automotive manufacturers
to lend you an old robot to test your theories. Write a few grant
proposals. They might just give you one to write it off as a donation.
If you associated the project with a University you'd probably get a
lot better response.

You can do it! But right now your barking up the wrong tree. Come back
to this forum when you have questions about the plane, and not about
the financial issues. Right now your just ****ing people off.

-Matt

SNIP