On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 04:41:34 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
...

I respectfully disagree as there is time frame in your book.taken from
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0404.html

5. When no delay is expected, the controller should issue a clearance
beyond the fix as soon as possible and, whenever possible, at least
5 minutes before the aircraft reaches the clearance limit.

So, if you don't give me a clearance beyond my fix, then the pilot should
expecting an EFC if he has to hold over a fix.

In other words, as soon as I have to enter a hold, I should be expecting
an
EFC as now there is a delay. After all, you have me spinning in circles.

My expected time enroute does not include time to hold over a fix.


http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0406.html#4-6-1

See subparagraph c.

Which your reference further supports my position. If you clear me to a
fix, then I will not hear an EFC UNLESS I have to hold at that fix.

CLEARED TO (fix), NO DELAY EXPECTED.

From B-1 of your reference.

1. Holding instructions may be eliminated when you inform the pilot that no
delay is expected.

from above indicates I will not be put in a hold as I am not being
instructed to hold

If I have to hold, then the phraseology in the very same subsection C-1
supports this.

Taken from C - 1

1. When additional holding is expected at any other fix in your facility's
area, state the fix and your best estimate of the additional delay. When
more than one fix is involved, state the total additional en route delay
(omit specific fixes).

After all, you have me going in circles. I have not been cleared out of
the hold or beyond my hold fix. That EFC will assure that if "by the book"
my radio's go belly up, then I can be assured seperation.

I realize this is the book world and the real world, ATC would just rather
have me clear the airspace as safely as I can, and the transponder 7600
sure would indicate to ATC I have a communication problem.

After all, if I have a transponder, there is a good chance I have
operational NAV equipment too.

Bottom line based on what you provided, is that if I put in a holding
pattern, I better hear EFC or anticipate additional time in the clearance.
Without an EFC, technically, I am not cleared past my holding fix.

Every hold I have been put in (practice and the two times "real deal", I
have been given an EFC.

Allen