Ed,

I have always enjoyed your posts and your level headedness.

It is a fact that Cunningham was not on the augmentation list and was on his
way out of the Navy if not for his Ace status. His service jacket left a lot
to be desired.

But all said, and I have said it many times, no matter how good we think we
are, it doesn't mean diddle squat until you have to walk the walk.

My personal feeling toward Cunningham aside, you and others are correct - It
was a sad day when it all came crashing down around him. Didn't help the
Navy either.

As for Fighter Drivers flying the stools at the O'Club, you got that
assessment right! LOL But there was always one guy who took it too far.
Cunningham was one of them.

John, I started in F4's, transitioned to 14s and then went into the Test
Community. Pax, working on the F14 engine program and juggling time with DJ
Venlet (DJ also spent time as my RIO on occasion in VF41 before his claim to
fame) on the T45 before going to Empire. I returned and went to DARPA.

I think we passed each other once or twice. If I recall, you a were a West
Coaster but I think my career was later than yours so I might be wrong
there. Another aspect is I left the fleet and succeeded in staying in the
cockpit in the test community which was pure luck as it is almost impossible
to do in the Navy.

Some of the old posters here were friends of mine such as Mary Shafer and
Tom Clark (VX20) I saw Tom a few years ago and he was still at Pax. I was
off the NG for a few years for professional reasons and just got back on
awhile ago.

Jake


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 4 Mar 2006 20:49:21 -0600, "JD" wrote:

John (and Red Rider)

I come to the discussion fairly late, and point out that I commented
on Duke in my blog last November
(http://thundertales.blogspot.com/200...ng-scales.html)


I knew Cunningham since the mid 70's. Fact, Cunningham was on the RIF
list
until he became an ace. Had he not become an ace that day, he would have
been passed over and released from the Navy.

Things must have been a lot different in the Navy in the Spring of
'72. While pilot training was being severely cut in both USAF and USN,
there wasn't much reducing of the experienced force going on with our
side of the house. That surprises me.

OGLA (Officer Grade Limitation Act) applied to all uniformed services
and that assured Duke (and me) that we could be around until 20 years
if we made O-4. As a combat experienced, Top Gun instructor, even
without the ace status, I've gotta think Duke would have been assured
a full career.

I never saw him once that he was not sitting in a bar (O Club) letting
everyone one within hearing distance know that he was the greatest pilot
the
Navy had in his time.

Somehow, that equated with what was expected of a fighter pilot in
those days. More business got conducted in club bars than in the
office and show me a fighter pilot who doesn't express confidence that
he is the "world's greatest" and I'll show you a potential loser.

I flew against him 4 times at Top Gun and had 4 kills.

Lots of guys flew against me in operational units as well as when I
was instructing at Fighter Lead-In. Lots of guys had kills against me.
Was that inferiority in my skills set or was I providing a rewarding
learning experience for them? I know, but they can't be sure.

"Kills" in training are meaningless. Killing or being killed in combat
are the true measure. I didn't get any kills in combat against enemy
aircraft, but then I never got killed either.

I have to disagree with in part (John) about him being the most prepared.
I
would say he WAS prepared having gone through TopGun but there were more
than several handfuls of Navy drivers who would have come out of the fray
Cunningham was in as Aces. Luck of the draw.

No disagreement there. Being in a target rich environment provides the
opportunity to excel. Actually excelling takes a bit more. Some luck,
some skill, some courage and some stupidity--lather, rinse, repeat.

Most of them would not have made it their life's mission to live off that
reputation. Willie (Driscoll) was quoted as saying on more than one
occasion that they were in the right place at the right time. As far Col
Toon, it has been proven that Toon was not involved in Cunningham's shoot
downs.

Doesn't matter if it was Toon or Nguyen Bagadonutz, it was an
incredible fight and one that a sensible, cautious man could conclude
should never have taken place. Separation from a MiG-17 in an F-4,
particularly one that was clean and light at that point, was always an
option.

Later in his Navy career, Cunningham became an egotistical drunk who would
berate anyone who disagreed with him.

Sounds like pretty typical fighter pilot behavior to me.

I can not honestly say I would have accomplished what he did that day, but
given the same situation and being well trained for it, I would like to
think I would.

I think that with one kill, I'd have headed for the beach. With two
kills I know I'd be on my way to do that victory pass at the boat. No
way I'd have been engaged with the third.

Much of the above is my personal assessment but there are also facts
presented.

Ditto!

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com