Jordan wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
Jordan wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
Jordan wrote:
Don't you think it would help its international position for Israel to end its
occupation of southern Syria before making demands on Syria?
No. I think it would help its international position for Israel to
_annex_ the Golan Heights and then reply to all questions about their
future disposition with "They're Israeli national territory. What are
you offering us to purchase them?"

Formal annexation would be a hanging offense as a crime against humanity was it
was found to be at Nuremberg.

Nonsense. Formal annexation of territory captured in war is a _normal_
disposal of such territory. And this has been true even after World
War II: note the dispositions of Tibet and South Vietnam.

So you are saying Israel is no better than communist countries. South Vietnam
was scheduled for a reunification vote in 1956. The west refused to hold that
election as the people would have overwhelmingly voted for it. Keeping the two
separate was contrary to the will of the people. As for Tibet, that annexation
is still not recognized.

In fact membership in the UN requires a nation to foreswear gaining land by
war. When Jordan annexed the West Bank only one country in the world recognized
that action, Egypt. When Jordan annexed Jerusalem no country recognized it not
even Egypt.

Similarly no country in the world has recognized Israel's claim to have annexed
Jerusalem. Israel has not claimed to have annexed anything else so there is no
issue of recognition.

The issue here is settling civilian populations in occupied territory. That is
clearly a hanging offense and a crime against humanity as per Nuremberg, the UN
Charter and the Geneva conventions. If you hold that is not a crime then you
hold the Nazis did nothing wrong by moving Germans into ANNEXED Poland and
expelling Poles from it.

Again, when did you become a Nazi?

Do you
really believe that if the Arabs had won _any_ territory from Israel in
any of the Arab-Israeli Wars, the captured territory wouldn't have been
formally annexed by one of the victor Powers?

As above that was what Jordan tried and only one country recognized one of the
two announced annexations.

This is also how Israel should have dealt with the issues of the West
Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip.

How would committing additional crimes against humanity have been a benefit?

Formal annexation of captured territory is not a "crime against
humanity," so your question is meaningless.

Have you never read the indictment or the judgements from the Nuremberg
tribunal? Why do you not read them some day and learn my basis for saying what I
say?

Are you saying the Nazi actions in Poland were lawful? That the expulsion of
Poles was lawful? That settling citizens of Germany in ANNEXED Poland was lawful?

When did you become a Nazi? When did you come to agree Nazi actions in Poland
were lawful?

Assuming that you meant
"How would annexing these territories have been a benfit?" the answer
is that the Israelis could then have deported the Palestinians from
this new Israeli territory. There would have been an international
outcry, calls for action and sanctions, and in a few years the issue
would have quietly died away.

As no country has recognized Israel's claimed annexation of Jerusalem what
makes you think any country would recognize its claim to have annexed anything
else?

And the deportation would be an additional crime against humanity as it was
when Germany expelled Poles from the part of Poland it claimed to have annexed.
Note also that annexation was recognized by members of the Axis and the Soviet
Union so it is far more than have recognized any annexation claims regarding
Palestine.

And that would result in millions more people with a lawful right to use deadly
force against those who drove them out as the Polish resistance was lawful.

If the Israelis had done this after 1967-72, there would have been _no_
"Palestinian issue," and by now there would be very little
international concern about the descendants of said "Palestinians," who
would have long since integrated into whatever countries they wound up
living in. Furthermore, if the Israelis had made plain that, if
attacked again, it would annex _more_ territory from the aggressor
states after beating them and expel _those_ inhabitants, I suspect that
the Arabs would have lost interest in actually attacking Israel.

You have gotten an overblown sense of your ability to predict an alternate
future from s.h.w-i. No country would have recognized the annexation nor the
legitimacy of the expulsion just as today NO country recognizes the legitimacy
of any of Israel's expulsions including those from 1947-48.

Why do you dream Palestinians would forget a real expulsion when Jews who were
never expelled from Judea developed an entire mythology to justify the atheist
Zionists returning nearly two millenia later?

You live in a fantasy world.

By failing to formally annex such territories, the Israelis create a
situation where they win nothing by winning any wars, but lose
everything if they lose any wars -- which tempts Arab aggression. They
are making the mistake of dealing with the Arabs as good-faith
negotiators interested in peace, when the Arabs are only interested in
destroying Israel and consider it totally acceptable to violate any
promises made to the Israelis.

Claiming to annex is something any country can do. The actual annexation has to
be recognized by other countries to be considered legitimate.

Israel is not considered legitimate by so many nations because the expulsion is
not recognized as legitimate by any nation nor by the United Nations. Israel's
right to exist has to be considered in light of the right of a nation of
criminals to exist.

When did you forget the libertarian principle of the absolute right to private
property? When did you forget the absolute right of the owners of property to
use any means available including deadly force to obtain the return of their
property? When did you forget that sovereignty does not mean ownership? When you
became a Nazi or when you became a communist?

--
When western nations renounce the right to resistance to foreign occupation
they can honestly demand Palestinians do so.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3650
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Lawful to bomb Israelis http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/bombings.phtml a11