On 30 Jul 2006 12:01:10 -0700,
wrote in
.com::
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 11:35:46 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
wrote in
sm5zg.84645$ZW3.36876@dukeread04::
To me, if the military is going to train at high-speed in joint use
airspace in the same sky as civil aircraft (most all of which are
equipped with Mode C transponders), it would be prudent for those
aircraft to be TCAS equipped. But, I suppose we'll have to wait for
more military/civil midair collisions before anything is done about,
if then.
Larry, how about once getting your facts straight?
I try, but it's difficult for a civilian to get information on
military aircraft.
All current production US fighters (and most operational ones -
except A-10s, early F-16s, and early F-18s) have transponder
interrogators perfectly capable of detecting Mode 3/C transponders,
using any squawk.
Thank you for this information. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be
the entire story.
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 04:20:45 GMT, "Lego"
wrote:
Interpreting the scope is a different matter (see above post). It
requires a great deal of training and targets can be missed.
(especially slow moving low flying aircraft for which the
radar isn't optimized) The radar isn't magic... it isn't like a
video game. The radar will sweep until ... 1- The air to ground
radar is selected. This is used to update the system. 2 - A
visual fix is being updated . We don't fly in air to ground mode
as it is worthless unless you are updating your system or doing
some kind of weapon employment. It is a fact that the radar is
always on. Ask any F-16 pilot
In the four military/civil MACs at the links below, you'll find no
mention of military radar use for traffic deconfliction.
Most also have PD radars that can easily detect conflicting traffic over a
120 degree cone in front - at low altitude.
While the aircraft may be so equipped, is the radar to which you refer
required to be used for _collision_avoidance_ during the time military
aircraft are operating in joint use airspace? Can you cite a
regulation that so mandates it?
And AWACS can see both.
Both, transponders and targets?
How common is it for AWACS to be employed for MTR training flights?
So what is your problem, other than a pathological hatred of the
military?
I have absolutely no enmity toward military pilots; in fact I respect
them for their bravery and skill.
The source of my concern is strictly a matter of self preservation.
Military fighter aircraft pilots have little physical harm to fear
from colliding with a typical GA aircraft due to the weight and speed
differential as well as a much more robust airframe and ejection seat
to provide them with a safe landing. The GA pilot is like a
fluttering moth poised hovering above the rush hour traffic in such a
situation. His chances of survival in a collision are slight at best.
I have to share the sky with the military, and their military/civil
MAC record isn't as good as one would expect.
Please take the time to objectively research these mishaps, and see if
you don't begin to understand my point of view:
Civil aircraft to the right of military aircraft:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...26X00109&key=1
F-16s lacked required ATC clearance:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X22313&key=1
A6 pilot expected to exit MTR eight minutes after route closu
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...11X12242&key=1
A6 hit glider that had right of way:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...13X33340&key=1
You seem to think military aviators are oblivious to the
threat of mid-airs.
I believe their commanders do not appreciate the hazard to the public
their high-speed, low-level operations pose to civil aviation. And I
think their safety procedures lack due prudence. But what I find most
troubling is the lack of consequences a military aviator faces as a
result of carelessness, incompetence, recklessness, and regulation
violations. If the military pilot thinks he can disintegrate a civil
flight, punch out, and live to fly another day without loss of rank,
pay, or freedom, what incentive does he have to watch out for us
little guys with whom he shares the skies?
Newsflash, dude - they are much better trained,
more professional, and safer than any civilian bug-smasher driver - and
I've been on both sides.
I would expect nothing less.
Most civil aircraft are incapable of achieving any where near the
speed of military aircraft, so the same level of skill isn't required
of civil pilots. The cost of military aircraft is hundreds of times
more than the typical civil aircraft, so the pilots are not selected
as carefully. And civil pilots are not screened and tested to the
same standards as military pilots. Thanks for the flash. :-(
If civilians read the NOTAMS, checked their charts (oh yeah - remember
those?), and did a little preflight planning, they could easily avoid
conflict with military traffic. But that would take some precious time
and effort, wouldn't it.
There are those civil airmen who do the things you suggest, and there
are those who are negligent, but none of those actions would have
prevented the for mishaps above.
And it is completely unreasonable and negligent for the FAA to expect
a Cessna 172 pilot to have adequate time to search his windscreen for
conflicting traffic, identify it, and take effective evasive action
when the closing speed is in excess of 500 knots.
Further, the inequity in expecting the civil pilot to evade the hazard
caused by high-speed, low-level military operations is unjust. The
military should be _solely_ responsible for the hazards they create.
How about getting civilian pilots to stay current, not fly in IMC
without a clearance or training, and maintain their aircraft to minimum
levels of safety - then you would possibly see a decrease in GA
accidents and fatalities.
You can attempt to steer the discussion toward civil airman
incompetence, but this message thread is about MACs.
Kirk
2000 hrs in F-4s
100 hours in AWACS
600 hours in ASEL
2000 hours in gliders
I'm impressed by those numbers, but not by your attitude.
I would expect to see some true safety consciousness, and remorse for
the carnage and destruction of civil pilots and aircraft caused by
military/civil mishaps. Oh well...