T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:

I don't think it's very far off topic. My interest has
always been what is required to cloud fly a glider, and part
of that interest has always been - "what about class G?"
I've been trying to determine exactly when you think the
FAA/NTSB would impose the careless/reckless charge on a
glider pilot who went cloud flying in class G. I don't
really care about instrument departures other than for what
they tell us about gliders in the U.S. Since there are no
glider/91.173 cases, we can only look at the instrument
cases.

Todd,

I apologize. Flying gliders IFR is very much on topic.


So you think the important factors a
1) the departure airport had a published approach.
2) it was in the Midwest - not out west.
3) it was a loophole to legally do what he couldn't do
otherwise without a clearance.

Yes, I do. And there are likely to be other factors with this case
that contributed to this pilot's violation that we don't know about,
such as:

1.) Why didn't this pilot get an IFR clearance prior to departure?
2.) Did he get a weather briefing (which is required), and
3.) if he did, why did he depart for an airport that was below
minimums?
4.) Did his departure create a conflict with another aircraft?
5.) What was his attitude/behavior when questioned by ATC?

I don't disagree, but presumably they did not have to let
him into the front of the line at Indianapolis, in which
case he'd have had to maintain VFR and go elsewhere. As to
accommodating aircraft from small airports out west, don't
most instrument pilots call and get a clearance with a
release time and a void time?

ATC simply won't give IFR clearances to aircraft operating from many
(not all!) small, remote airports out west. That is the purpose of the
intentional wording of CFAR § 91.173.

I used to fly at an airport not far from the NYC Mode C veil
that was notorious for low level fog. There were pilots who
would depart through it to get to VMC. Would you consider
them to be at risk of a 91.13 charge? Did it matter whether
they intended to go VFR to their destination?

It depends. I know that is a sucky answer, but CFAR § 91.13 is, by
definition, subjective! I'll try to illustrate using two hypothetical
situations from your New York Airport:

Flight 1: A pilot departs without an IFR clearance through 500 feet of
ground fog with visibility just shy of 1 mile. Above the fog,
conditions are clear skies, and unrestricted visibility. The flight
continues VFR to a VFR landing at the destination.

Flight 2: A pilot departs without an IFR clearance through 500 feet of
ground fog with visibility just shy of 1 mile. Above the fog, however,
is an overcast layer at 2,000 feet with widely scattered rain showers.
Many of the other airports in the area are reporting IFR conditions, as
does the destination airport.

While neither of these pilots violated the regs, one can argue that the
2nd pilot exercised poor judgement. If this departure created a
conflict with another aircraft, and the pilot had a "So what, just give
me my clearance already" attitude, then a violation would be probable.

I'm not sure if it does. Any time that an aircraft is in
IMC outside of controlled airspace without a clearance,
there is *some* MAC risk with another aircraft that is
talking to ATC or doing the same thing. You seem confident
that it's legal in some circumstances, but not others. The
IFR magazine article and the two cases cited seemed to say
that it wasn't all that clear that it was ever legal no
matter what the FARs seem to say.

Again, this is just my opinion, but one based on a lot of experience
flying IFR, and training and evaluating pilots at all levels of the
system. CFAR § 91.13 is a vital tool for the FAA to protect those of
us that work with the system from those who do not.

If a glider is in cloud out west in class G, will the pilot
be more like the fog departure case or the "loophole" case?
I'd love to see a case that says - yes it's OK to depart in
fog from an isolated airport to get to VMC and fly VFR. Is
there such a case?

Unfortunately, we may never have such a case. So all that I can say is
follow your gut. If you aren't comfortable doing something, or a voice
inside you is saying that maybe you should do something else, don't do
it.

Which brings us back to the beginning of the thread. While I believe
it is possible for me to pick up a VFR clearance to operate a non-IFR
equipped glider in class A airspace, I'm not willing to risk my career
on it! I'm trying to work with the system to get an IFR clearance to
operate an IFR-equipped glider in Class A airspace without a waiver.
This is an exercise of legality and good judgement.

Chris Fleming, F2
El Paso, Texas