all so true - but if the manpads is not just IR guided, say a digital beam
rider flying a laser, radar, or optical beam or with a sophisticated heads
so that it can shoot head on, then it gets tougher which is why surprise
helps and low noise does a lot there

Flying low and fast, that is nape of the earth and near sonic the JSF going
from A to B will do very well and in that case unless something warns the
ground defenses. The world is now a place where the second you taxi or
leave the ship the gomers are on their cell phones calling in the launch -
again this brings up how the Israeli's dealt with the IADS put up in the
Bekaa and how they tried to convince the US Navy not to go low in the
strikes conducted around Beirut in 1983. The idea being if you suppress the
radar SAMS (SA-2/3/6/8 etc.) then you kind of carve out the area above
15,000 feet and the AAA or manpads can not effectively shoot you there even
though they could reach the height kinematically. This goes on and on...
so going low or going high depends upon surprise, if it can be obtained, and
what you are trying to do. One thing for sure however, once you target the
SAM operators their attitude changes.

In the 90's the new Defense Minister of Lithuania was a missile officer who
served a tour with the Russians as an advisor in Hanoi during the Vietnam
war and was at the site off of Haiphong that would pick off so many of our
jets egressing. I had to take the son of a bitch to lunch as a favor to a
NATO person and got to like him, he introduced himself with "I think we met
before" - a good ice breaker. Since we are on war stories - the following
year I was dropped off at the Polish AF academy (Deblin) to help in the
transition and decided in all my good vision to convince the Chief of Staff
to allow us to commandeer his YAK and take the high grades in the senior
class to the Farnborough Air Show with an actual agenda to do some learning.
Well after a lot of hassle he agreed as long as he could go and then I
couldn't get any budget from the US but BAe became a great helper - nice
guys. Long story short in the process BAe insisted that the Polish pilots
get the Queen's tour of Warton and the Hawk & Eurofighter so we all tramp
over their shuttle plane for the flight to Warton and the class conspired
with the Brits to sit me next to the commander of the Vietnamese Air Force -
Gen Dong something - a guy with nine kills and looked and talked like a
fighter pilot in anybody's first rate air force. Never trust Lieutenants.
I felt about as big as you know what but he was entertaining knowing every
detail about his missions and kills - "what did you do in the war ole ski"
blurted his interpreter, well let's see, I bombed a lot of trees, damaged a
couple of jets, got blown out of a helicopter and basically was a miserable
noload for too long. Ahso and the fast talking interpreter was laughing up
a storm so I said - "well at least I got to kill a lot of folks like this
guy" Interpreter shuts up abruptly - General looks at me, smiles and in
perfect English says "me too". We drank all the way to Warton and talked
about the F-16 - I hope he gets his F-16's thinks the Su-27 is a pig - so
much for the enemy.


"eponymous cowherd" wrote in message
...
In article C22ih.954$Eo.367@trnddc08,
"Ski" wrote:

Well what about the Rapiers and handheld IR SAM's - every one of these
jets
are too hot, too contrast prone for low altitude and all the too noisy -
so
they use countermeasures, tactics, and agility which is sometimes not
enough.
But for sure the Apache has been ruled out and the Cobra given real
trouble.


Speed helps a lot against MANPADs. They have a 3 mile range and you have
to push
a button to cool the seeker before firing. If a plane is moving through
that
range quickly it is a tough target for a MANPAD, though numbers can make
up for
that. Still, moving through the threat zone quickly helps a lot and the
F-35 has
tons of engine power.



Just for grins think of an extended development JSF leveraging all the
good
things now realized but add a real laser weapon to rid it totally of
racks,
weapons, and pylons - then merge in the UCAS/

I think the best lasers can currently do at converting electricity to
laser
light is 50% with the rest becoming heat. Until the efficiency goes up I
don't
think lasers will be a practical weapon. At 50% it means that if the laser
is
strong enough to melt a tank it is producing enough heat itself to melt a
tank.