"As I've said before, 61.51 (e) (1) (iii) says that the
pilot not
flying can log PIC during the time the pilot flying is under
the
hood so long as both pilots agree that the pilot flying is
acting
as PIC and the pilot not flying meets the other requirements
(certs,
ratings, etc.)"

No, it does not say that the safety pilot can log PIC, it
says that in order to log PIC, any pilot not holding a CFI
[or an ATP in airline service], must be mani[pulating the
controls.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport,
| recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log
| pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during
which
| that person-
|
| (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an
aircraft
| for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;




"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...
| On 01/22/07 13:01, Jim Macklin wrote:
| You cite the rule, that by the two exceptions the FAA
lists
| for logging time as PIC when not manipulating the
controls,
| allow logging that time as PIC just because two bozos
agree
| to both log PIC time beforehand.
|
| We're weren't talking about bozos. We were talking about
Pilots.
|
|
| It is legal to log the time under the requirement of
91.109
| but 91`.109 does not state whether that loggable time is
PIC
| or SIC.
|
| That's right - it doesn't. However, 61.51 says that it can
be
| logged as PIC (under the conditions mentioned earlier).
|
|
| Once again, you've simply copied the existing FARs without
noting
| the specific FAR which supports your point.
|
| Are you able to cite the specific FAR are aren't you?
|
| As I've said before, 61.51 (e) (1) (iii) says that the
pilot not
| flying can log PIC during the time the pilot flying is
under the
| hood so long as both pilots agree that the pilot flying is
acting
| as PIC and the pilot not flying meets the other
requirements (certs,
| ratings, etc.)
|
|
| Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
| PART 61-CERTIFICATION: PILOTS, FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS, AND
| GROUND INSTRUCTORS
| Subpart A-General
|
| Browse Previous | Browse Next
|
|
| ? 61.51 Pilot logbooks.
| (a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each
person
| must document and record the following time in a manner
| acceptable to the Administrator:
|
| (1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet
the
| requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review
of
| this part.
|
| (2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the
| recent flight experience requirements of this part.
|
| (b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the
| requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each
person
| must enter the following information for each flight or
| lesson logged:
|
| (1) General-
|
| (i) Date.
|
| (ii) Total flight time or lesson time.
|
| (iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived,
or
| for lessons in a flight simulator or flight training
device,
| the location where the lesson occurred.
|
| (iv) Type and identification of aircraft, flight
simulator,
| or flight training device, as appropriate.
|
| (v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by
?91.109(b) of
| this chapter.
|
| (2) Type of pilot experience or training-
|
| (i) Solo.
|
| (ii) Pilot in command.
|
| (iii) Second in command.
|
| (iv) Flight and ground training received from an
authorized
| instructor.
|
| (v) Training received in a flight simulator or flight
| training device from an authorized instructor.
|
| (3) Conditions of flight-
|
| (i) Day or night.
|
| (ii) Actual instrument.
|
| (iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a
flight
| simulator, or a flight training device.
|
| (c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in
this
| section may be used to:
|
| (1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this
part
| or a privilege authorized under this part; or
|
| (2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of
| this part.
|
| (d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student
pilot
| performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship
| requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot
may
| log as solo flight time only that flight time when the
pilot
| is the sole occupant of the aircraft.
|
| (e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport,
| recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log
| pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during
which
| that person-
|
| (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an
aircraft
| for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
|
| (ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
|
| (iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as
pilot in
| command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is
| required under the type certification of the aircraft or
the
| regulations under which the flight is conducted.
|
| (2) An airline transport pilot may log as
pilot-in-command
| time all of the flight time while acting as
pilot-in-command
| of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot
| certificate.
|
| (3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command
| time all flight time while acting as an authorized
| instructor.
|
| (4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only
when
| the student pilot-
|
| (i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is
performing
| the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring
more
| than one pilot flight crewmember;
|
| (ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required
under
| ?61.87 of this part; and
|
| (iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or
| rating.
|
| (f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may
log
| second-in-command time only for that flight time during
| which that person:
|
| (1) Is qualified in accordance with the
second-in-command
| requirements of ?61.55 of this part, and occupies a
| crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more
than
| one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
|
| (2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and
instrument
| rating (if an instrument rating is required for the
flight)
| for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is
| required under the type certification of the aircraft or
the
| regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
|
| (g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log
| instrument time only for that flight time when the
person
| operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments
| under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
|
| (2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time
when
| conducting instrument flight instruction in actual
| instrument flight conditions.
|
| (3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet
the
| recent instrument experience requirements of ?61.57(c)
of
| this part, the following information must be recorded in
the
| person's logbook-
|
| (i) The location and type of each instrument approach
| accomplished; and
|
| (ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required.
|
| (4) A flight simulator or approved flight training
device
| may be used by a person to log instrument time, provided
an
| authorized instructor is present during the simulated
| flight.
|
| (h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training
| time when that person receives training from an
authorized
| instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight
| training device.
|
| (2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and
must:
|
| (i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized
| instructor; and
|
| (ii) Include a description of the training given, the
length
| of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's
| signature, certificate number, and certificate
expiration
| date.
|
| (i) Presentation of required documents. (1) Persons must
| present their pilot certificate, medical certificate,
| logbook, or any other record required by this part for
| inspection upon a reasonable request by-
|
| (i) The Administrator;
|
| (ii) An authorized representative from the National
| Transportation Safety Board; or
|
| (iii) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement
officer.
|
| (2) A student pilot must carry the following items in
the
| aircraft on all solo cross-country flights as evidence
of
| the required authorized instructor clearances and
| endorsements-
|
| (i) Pilot logbook;
|
| (ii) Student pilot certificate; and
|
| (iii) Any other record required by this section.
|
| (3) A sport pilot must carry his or her logbook or other
| evidence of required authorized instructor endorsements
on
| all flights.
|
| (4) A recreational pilot must carry his or her logbook
with
| the required authorized instructor endorsements on all
solo
| flights-
|
| (i) That exceed 50 nautical miles from the airport at
which
| training was received;
|
| (ii) Within airspace that requires communication with
air
| traffic control;
|
| (iii) Conducted between sunset and sunrise; or
|
| (iv) In an aircraft for which the pilot does not hold an
| appropriate category or class rating.
|
| (5) A flight instructor with a sport pilot rating must
carry
| his or her logbook or other evidence of required
authorized
| instructor endorsements on all flights when providing
flight
| training.
|
| [Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt.
61-103, 62
| FR 40897, July 30, 1997; Amdt. 61-104, 63 FR 20286, Apr.
23,
| 1998; Amdt. 61-110, 69 FR 44865, July 27, 2004]
|
|
| Browse Previous | Browse Next
|
| ? 91.109 Flight instruction; Simulated instrument
flight
| and certain flight tests.
| (a) No person may operate a civil aircraft (except a
manned
| free balloon) that is being used for flight instruction
| unless that aircraft has fully functioning dual
controls.
| However, instrument flight instruction may be given in a
| single-engine airplane equipped with a single,
functioning
| throwover control wheel in place of fixed, dual controls
of
| the elevator and ailerons when-
|
| (1) The instructor has determined that the flight can be
| conducted safely; and
|
| (2) The person manipulating the controls has at least a
| private pilot certificate with appropriate category and
| class ratings.
|
| (b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated
| instrument flight unless-
|
| (1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot
who
| possesses at least a private pilot certificate with
category
| and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being
flown.
|
| (2) The safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to
each
| side of the aircraft, or a competent observer in the
| aircraft adequately supplements the vision of the safety
| pilot; and
|
| (3) Except in the case of lighter-than-air aircraft,
that
| aircraft is equipped with fully functioning dual
controls.
| However, simulated instrument flight may be conducted in
a
| single-engine airplane, equipped with a single,
functioning,
| throwover control wheel, in place of fixed, dual
controls of
| the elevator and ailerons, when-
|
| (i) The safety pilot has determined that the flight can
be
| conducted safely; and
|
| (ii) The person manipulating the controls has at least a
| private pilot certificate with appropriate category and
| class ratings.
|
| (c) No person may operate a civil aircraft that is being
| used for a flight test for an airline transport pilot
| certificate or a class or type rating on that
certificate,
| or for a part 121 proficiency flight test, unless the
pilot
| seated at the controls, other than the pilot being
checked,
| is fully qualified to act as pilot in command of the
| aircraft.
|
|
|
| FAR 1.1 (does not refer to logging time0
|
| Pilot in command means the person who:
|
| (1) Has final authority and responsibility for the
operation
| and safety of the flight;
|
| (2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or
during
| the flight; and
|
| (3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type
rating,
| if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight
|
| Second in command means a pilot who is designated to be
| second in command of an aircraft during flight time.
|
|
|
|
| "Mark Hansen" wrote in message
| ...
| | On 01/22/07 12:33, Jim Macklin wrote:
| | You ignored my reasoned statements, so I said your
| statement
| | was BS. I stand by that.
| |
| | All the rules you cite require that to LOG PIC you
must
| be
| | the pilot flying.
| |
| | Okay, that's a compelling argument. Can you please
state
| which
| | FAR it is that states that to log PIC you must be the
| pilot flying?
| |
| | I can't find it.
| |
| |
| |
| | Yes, you are looking, you are a
| safety
| | pilot. You are required to be there because the
single
| | pilot can't see outside. But unless the guy under
the
| hood
| | is just sitting there while YOU do the flying, YOU
can't
| LOG
| | PIC unless you hold a CFI or the flight is an
airline
| | training flight and you're the assigned PIC.
| |
| | Just because a second pilot is required by 91.109
does
| not
| | make that pilot time logable as PIC unless they are
the
| sole
| | manipulator.
| |
| | Again, I think the FARs disagree with you.
| |
| | It is very possible that neither pilot can log PIC,
but
| the
| | FAA will insist that at least one of them will be
held
| | responsible as PIC even if they can't log it.
| |
| | A safety pilot who is not a CFI should log that time
as
| SIC
| | because that is what it is. Required crew member
not
| | manipulating the controls.
| |
| |
| |
| | "Ron Natalie" wrote in message
| |
m...
| | | Jim Macklin wrote:
| | | BS
| | |
| | |
| | |
| | | Well there's a reasoned and intelligent comment
backed
| up
| | with facts.
| | | 61.51(2)(iii), 61.52(3), and 61.51(4) all provide
for
| | logging PIC
| | | when acting as PIC. In this case 61.51(2)(iii)
| applies as
| | the flight
| | | is conducted under 61.109(2) which requires a
second
| | pilot.
| |
| |
| |
|
|