On Mar 1, 11:58 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Jay B writes:
Don't care if it's due to budget or capacity. It still lacks
fidelity. It does not model every aspect of every plane offered.

Why do you require that every aspect of every plane be modeled?

I don't. You're the one who claims that MSFS properly reflects RL
flight. However, I don't know how you can draw that conclusion
without any RL experience with which to compare.

It's exactly what it's meant for...scenery doesn't matter at all.

There you have it, then. No sense spending many processor cycles and screen
space on scenery if you don't need it.

What about contact approaches and circle to land approaches?

It is in visual flight.

No, it's not. That's why it's called "visual" flight, and not "tactile" flight. If you cannot see in visual flight, you crash, no matter what sensations you feel. Conversely, if you can see in visual flight, you don't need sensations.

Spoken like a true devotee of life in 2D. If you ever do go up for
real, you'll very quickly find that you can find a use for all five
senses.

It can be your friend or it can kill you but it cannot be ignored nor discarded.

I don't see how it can be your friend, since it's useless and misleading unless you also have visual input or instruments to actually give you the information you need. And you can most definitely ignore it, otherwise
instrument flight wouldn't be possible.

But in the end, feel is still there (as either the expected force
resultant from your direct action (I bank, I turn, I feel the pressure
in my butt...) or as the force you properly interpret via the
instruments (I feel pressure in my butt...why?) Either way, you
aren't flying in a vaccuum.

Actually, those who know me know that I am a devout worshiper at the
high alter of flight. I've been an aviation buff all my life (well
before I earned my wings) and I extoll it's virtues to any and all who
will listen. I make every effort to offer my non-flying friends the
opportunity to ride along in the hope that they will catch the bug and
want to get their own certificate.

That's not what I said. I said that you don't care about someone who is
interested in aviation, not that you aren't interested in it yourself.

Read what I wrote again: "I make every effort to offer my non-flying
friends the opportunity to ride along in the hope that they will catch
the bug and want to get their own certificate." If that isn't
extending myself for others who may (or may not) be interested in
aviation, then I don't know what is.

As for ego, when it comes to being a pilot, I have 147 hours of total
flight time. There are pilots on these boards with over 10,000 hours +
... the difference between you and me is that I know when to shut
my mouth, open my ears and listen.

The difference between you and me is 147 hours. The difference between you
and the other pilots of whom you speak is 9,853 hours. In other words, you're
essentially a non-pilot on this scale, just like me.

All I need separate you from me is the .9 hours I logged on my first
lesson in October, 2004.

But I suppose you'll claim that the first hour makes all the difference

Atta Boy Kreskin...

and the other 9,999 hours are unimportant.

Again, this is where you miss the entire point. To me, the other
9,999 hours are supremely important. If a 10,000+ hour pilot speaks,
I shut mouth and become all ears. Does it matter if I immediately
take everything they say at face value? Of course not. But, unlike
you, I *know* I don't have the piloting chops to stand there and call
bull**** to his/her face. If nothing else, that's just simply rude.

Doesn't mean I have to agree or believe everything they
post but it doesn mean that they deserve their due by shear weight of
numbers. It's called respect. A concept with which you are so
obviously unfamiliar with.

I respect people who have demonstrated their worthiness of respect.

Great. And conversely, the world at large reserves the right to
respond as it sees fit to those who are not.

I don't respect anyone by default, and numbers and credentials don't count, as I long ago discovered that they are only very loosely correlated with things worthy of respect.

Do you have this same lack of respect for all authority figures? You
gonna tell a Cop he's full of ****? A Dentist when he's up to his
elbows in your mouth? How about a surgeon who has a vital internal
organ in his hand at that particular moment? You gonna ask to see his
diploma? Or would you rather quote some obscure passage from Grey's
Anatomy?

You can have 9000 hours of experience, or you can have 100 hours ninety times over.

Did you come up with that yourself or did you read it somewhere?

So that's what this is all about, eh? You feel left out of the club?

No, I'm not interested in clubs. I'm interested in aviation. If anything, having to join a club just to fly would put me off.

No you don't. You argue, defy and generally **** on anyone and everyone.

I argue because I have often verified, and found discrepancies for which I need explanations. I question answers and expect the answers to be substantiated. If someone simply says "because I say so," I know that he
doesn't know what he is talking about.

I dare you to go into the Google Archive and find five things that
you've been told (quote the posts) that were later found to be
incorrect in the FARs (quote the regulation.) You've never been a
student pilot, but one of the most important things you learn: You
don't have to know it cold, but you need to know how/where to look it
up. Thing one with most of the poeple here is that you simply will
not do the legwork required to get the knowledge. You don't have to
take anything that anyone tells you as vertias, but for GOD'S SAKE go
crack a book or hit any of the hundreds (if not thousands) of websites
devoted to the dissemination of the information you seek.

And when they do, you **** on them some more.

No. They don't support the statements, in the majority of cases. Instead, they become emotional and angry, and insist that I must believe them just because they said so.

And to a person, every last one of them has said (in effect): If you
don't believe me, here's a book, URL, DVD, other "person / place /
thing" you can consult. There are things in aviation that are
universal truths as well as sources of information that (while open to
interpretation) are considered the last word. The FARs are a perfect
example. Yeah, some of it doesn't make a whole lot of sense and some
of it is contradictory and suspect...but it doesn't change the fact
that if your interpretation doesn't match that of "The Man" when he
comes to visit, you're probably screwed. This is a dicotomy that,
IMO, you just have to learn to live with.

The more I uncover their actual ignorance of the topic, the more irritated and aggressive they become. But I am not distracted by this, as I've seen it thousands of times before.

Ignorance is defined as: "A Lack Of Knowledge." You, by your status
as a non-pilot, are as ignorant (note the lower case "i") as one can
possbily be about piloting because you've never piloted an aircraft of
any kind. Doesn't matter if you can quote the FAR/AIM chapter and
verse. You are not a pilot, therefore you are ignorant about being a
pilot. You can cure your ignorance on most subjects in the same
manner that I cured mine...read. But until you actually control an
aircraft in flight, you will always be ignorant about being a pilot.
QED back at ya...

Yet you persist in asking questions which generally be unanswerable in a forum populated largely by GA pilots?

I was hoping there would be more pilots of other types. There still may be.

If you had even half the sense you claim to have, the tenor of posts
should tell you that their aren't very many heavy-iron pilots here so
asking those types of questions is simply a way to allow you to sit
there and feel smug. There's an old saying (it pertains to military
flying but it fits here too...):

"If someone is a fighter (airline) pilot, don't worry, they'll tell
you. If they aren't, don't embarrass them by asking..."

The handful of vocal posters aren't necessarily representative, they're just loud.

The only reason someone "shouts" is because they think the other
person isn't listening. Don't know about you, but I usually don't
need to be told something more than once before it sinks in.

Do you really thing you'll get operational details for a 747-400 from a group that is predominently concerned with Cessnas, Pipers and the like?

I haven't found a more likely group on USENET. Do you know of one?

Two actually: rec.aviation.questions and rec.aviation.answers.

Wow, thanks for bringing me back to center. I really need to control those irrational outbursts directed at completely anonymous people.

It's often just a question of practice, although personality plays a role.

ZOOM

You mean you couldn't learn anything from aviation web sites? From the FAA, AOPA and/or EAA?

Ah, I suppose that applies. I only glanced at the list once your intent became apparent. So that's two out of all statements. Why is every other statement "Learns to say Thank You"? What does that have to do with aviation?

It simply serves to point out that you don't value the information
you're being provided with (not just due respect) but with any respect
at all. I've looked and I don't see a single post from you (good, bad
or indifferent) where you've shown any appreciation whatsoever for the
time and effort that people here taken.

We've had many non-pilots post here (and by here I mean
rec.aviation.*) and by and large they've all received answers from
others. But, unlike you, they know that they are "ignorant" about
being a pilot. It's simple really. If you were to start just one
post with: "I'm not a pilot but..." or "I've noticed something in
MSFS and I'm wondering if you pilots could help me with..." or maybe
even just "Does X happen in real life...?"

Once upon a time it was called "knowing your place." I'll just refer
back to what I said about me Vs a 10,000 hour pilot. I don't have to
agree, but it's just plain rude to say you know better when chances
are, you don't.

From the information provided by other, more experienced pilots?

Like pilots with a staggering 147 hours, you mean? Three weeks of experience?

Dunno what you want me to say there bucko. It's 147 hours of real
flight that you don't have. You can make all the essoteric arguements
you want. Toss out all the little latin phrases, make your bombastic
and utterly increadible statements of fact about your Barons and 747s
but in the end, I have 147 hours and counting...and you have???

And there you go with the ego thing again... How, praytell, is it
possible to maintain this mythical "club" you carry on about when
usenet is the most egalitarian communcicative device ever conceived?

It isn't. That's part of what irritates the people who want to do so. They
come to believe that a newsgroup is their turf, and then when they are
reminded that anyone can use USENET and all are equal, they become irritated.

Your wrong. People get irritated because an ignorant person has the
unmittigated gaul to post things that make them seem as if they are
what they are not. You can not have it both ways. You can not
attempt to pass yourself off on the one hand as a pilot, then turn
right around and make disparaging comments about aviation. You're so
obviously not a pilot (because a real pilot will not make the kind of
statements about flying that you make) that you simply will never gain
any degree of credability here. Don't care how much you bitch, moan,
whine, complain, cojole, beg, plead, browbeat, implore, agree, deny or
obfuscate. Your cover is blown and It's simply not possible.

No one has said you can't post here. You are free to do as you please...but so is everyone else.

Thank goodness.

If you are perceived as being a pariah, or if you feel particularly persecuted, then perhaps you should look inward before lashing out.

I don't care how I'm perceived. I just like to discuss aviation.

So you keep saying...

Interesting that you snipped my sentence relating to how people are
not immune from the consequences of their actions. It's ok for anyone
to post whatever they want, so long as they agree with you right?
Everyone's out of step but my Johnny..."

Again with the ego boost?

Yes. Most of the conflicts boil down to that to some extent.

You realize don't you that you could be the second coming
of Wilbur Wright, but unless you've walked the walk, all the talk in
the world is never going to earn you one iota of respect here ...

I don't care about getting respect here. I don't have an ego to maintain. I
just come here to discuss aviation.

So you keep saying...

... so long as you continue to boast, brag and otherwise browbeat
people here without ever having moved even an inch off Terra Firma
as a pilot?

Whereas, say, 147 hours would change everything (the next 10,000 wouldn't
matter, though).

Don't really care what you think on the matter. I know that even my
measly 147hrs has made a change in me like nothing else short of the
rapture could possibly affect. In a way, I actually feel sort of
sorry for you that you'll never experience it yourself. And we both
know I'm right...you never will. I was a wannabee for 43 years but I
had the balls to do more than just wish.

Seriously, if you want to be Cock of the Rock, you need to take your act where someone gives a damn.

See above. The way I'm perceived is unimportant. What is important is
discussions of aviation.

So you keep saying...

I coun't four specific references to ego.

Yes; ego is a problem for many here.

Yourself excepted, of course...

It's the source of many conflicts. People lash out when their egos are bruised, and if their egos are bigger than their accomplishments, they become very emotional indeed.

And you are able to determine that someones ego is bigger than their
deeds, how? And I mean specifically in these forums, in print, in
black and white. I don't think anyone else here has ever said that
they "don't fly in real life" then post about flying their Baron, et
al... My God, talk about Pot, Kettle, Black. You have the temmerity
to say that people here have egos bigger than their accomplishments
while you try to come off like Sky King backed by exactly ZERO actual
experience.

Man, you've either got balls the size of Kansas or else you suffer
from the most screaming form of reality disconnect as is possible to
have.

(Seems Anthony would make a good politician... Very convenient of him
to just completely omit my comments about him being the electronic
version of the little brother that can't come play with the big boys.
Guess that one hit a little too close to home.)

Why thank you. They happen to be two of my best traits!

We all have good points. I'm told that they are among mine as well.

So you keep saying...