Tom Cooper wrote:
"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in
message ...
Arie Kazachin wrote:
In message -
(Jack White) writes:
snip
The IDF intelegence deny that happened as the CIA asked them not to
disclose
it. The world was afraid that Nixon had gone off the deep end and
would
use
SAC Bombers already airborn 24 hours a day and fire the misiles in
the
Silos
at the Russians as he warned them he would if they did what you say.
There
is no declasified information on Russian Pilots flying missions for
the
Arab
side to this day.
Matt, this is nonsence.
It appears to me that YOU don't know about this but prefer to make
the whole topic a matter of some conspiracy theories and similar BS.
See the article "Red Stars over Egypt", by Mikhael Zhirokhov,
published in the British mag Air Pictorial, June, July, and August
2001: it reveals almost everything about the Soviets in Egypt through
the 1960s and 1970s. Even such Soviet "Top Guns" like Oleg Tsoy
(currently senior test pilot at Sukhoi) were there and have flown
MiGs in Egyptian markings.
There are of course the rhumors that it happened but no
IAF pilot, no Arab Pilot, and no Soviet Pilot has come forward about
such
to
this day. Stop inventing stories and reporting unprovable things.
Bottom line in both those wars the Arabs lost their Airforce
Capabilty to fight while IAF turned to ground support missions only
at the end.
Even more nonsence.
The Egyptians trained according to the Soviet doctrine in the 1960s
and that was the reason why they were unable to fight in 1967. They
(the Egyptians) went though a very painfull process of re-learning
the basics of the air-to-air combat at low levels during the War of
Attrition. During this process they re-wrote most of the Soviet
combat manuals - especially those for MiG-17, MiG-21, and Su-7. In
1970 the Soviets still had the same approach to the quesitons of
gunnery training and air-to-air combat like before the Six Day War.
By 1972, however, even they started teaching the Syrians accordingly
(only not their own pilots).
Could you ask yourself why?
And on the
ground things got worse. The Syrians in one Air Strike which every
IAF Plane returned safely home totally unchallanged accept for
manually aimed anti-aircraft-fire from Cira WWII heavy calaber
machine guns on turrets, destroyed the Syrian Equivolent of the War
Room/Pentagon with every
military
man worth a damn in planing a stratidgy.
This is laughable. Where is this from?
Do you know what exactly was hit on 10 October? Where was the Syrian
"War Room"? You don't really believe it was placed in the middle of
Damascus, or?
Where they got into the airspace
over the city was where they had taken out the two SAM Batteries.
The strike against the Syrian Army HQs involved no attacks against
the SAM batteries: the only such strikes on the Golan front were
flown on the morning of 7 October. Two F-4Es were shot down by SA-6s,
two by ZSU-23-4s, and two by MiG-21s for one SA-6 site and two MiGs
in exchange.
The
Soviets built the air defense to have overlapping kill zones. I.e.,
there are 5 batteries A B C D E . A overlaps the kill
zone of B,
B
of A and C, C of B and D and D of C and E, E of D.
Take out B and C and you have a larger gap in between the kill zones.
Not even the Syrian air defences along Golan were organized according
to this (indeed Soviet) doctrine. They were organized according to
Arab experiences - with the help of Soviet weapons.
Mission to take out the threat is succesfull as the only important
targets that they protect (anything inside Damascus) is worth
risking anything to take out. The ones further south could be flown
around, the mobile units
are
too hard to find and hit so left alone usually till they set up and
become
a
target. But they can usually only fire one and then have to be
reloaded (about an hour long proceedure). Israel tended to ignore
them and go for strategic targets and only took on the SAMS in that
war when they were in the way of that.
Wrong without an end. The Israelis first hit the wall with their
forehead trying to target SAM-sites about which they didn't even know
where these should have been. The result was the Operation Dogman 5
("Plan 5" or something similar), which ended with such a catastrophe
for the unit better known in the public as the "201st Sqn" (50% loss
in a single mission). Then they learned the lesson and started flying
interdiction strikes around the Syrian SAM-belt, and CAS in the areas
on the edges of the Egyptian SAM-belt. Nevertheless, their Skyhawks
had to fly CAS over Golan and on Sinai, and their losses (not only to
the SAMs, but foremost to MiGs and ZSU-23-4s) were staggering - until
the Arabs spent most of their SAMs, so that the IDF/AF was free to
maneuver.
Israel today makes a air-to-surface missile, once a radar
source is turned on, not even "painting" them it can be fired from
about
20
miles out and it will even if they shut down all power hit the mark
it is totally locked in and it flies at low to the ground altitudes
to boot. It makes the US HARM systems old fasioned in that they
need to have it paint
an
aircraft to lock on. Missiles with HARM systems have been known to
take
out
the battery after the plane is shot down already.
And which missile should this be, please? Not the "Purple Fist" by
accident?
If yes, be informed that this is actually the US-produced AGM-78
Standard ARM, taken out of service in US military already in the late
1980s...
The "real news" to this topic is the Israeli-built Harpy ARM-UAV,
capable of cruising at a very low speed for hours over the
battlefield and then targeting only the radars specifically
programmed into its seeker head, by a near vertical "kamikaze-style"
dive on their antennas.
You are totally streching, the Soviets were thought to have flown not
during
the Yom Kippur War but for Egypt in the six day war, that according
to the Liberty croud here, that their mission was to listen for
proof of Soviet Envolvement.
You're mixing almost everything. The Six Day War was fought in 1967,
and this was the war during which the Israelis attacked USS Liberty.
During this war there were only 35 Soviet instructors in Egypt, and
these took no part in fighting against Israel at all.
The number of Soviet "advisors" was constantly increasing since the
end of the Six Day War and during the War of Attrition, fought
(actually) 1967-1973 (officially between 1968 and 1970), reaching the
pike in March 1970, when a whole Soviet air defence divison was
deployed to Egypt. In 1972 Sadat expelled most of the Soviet
instructors out of Egypt, so that by 1973 there were not many of them
left there to fight at all. The 154th SAF (equipped with MiG-25Rs)
was deployed to Cairo West in the final days of the war and flew only
a handfull of sorties before the armistice.
Thus, during the October/Teshreen War, fought in 1973, the Soviets
flew no air battles against the Israelis: even East Germans, Poles,
Noth Koreans, Pakistanis, all the possible Arabs - and one British -
did, just no Soviets.
BTW, the Soviets also flew combat sorties for Iraqis during the war
with Iran (or is this another "big secret" in your opinion?): two
were killed while flying MiG-27s, at least two more while flying
MiG-25s - all in air combats with Iranian F-14s. One more was shot
down while flying MiG-27 by Iranian Phantoms, but he survived.
In exchange they shot down nothing.
Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585
This was acknowleged the day it happened by US Intellegence as well as photo
shots that appeared in the NY Times released by the IAF to the press. The
building was the right building and after the war even Syria admitted it
happend. It is you that are full of Bull ****.
--
MattA
?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives
Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads
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